Help Me Go Ampless : Amp Sim Pedals Discussion

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Larry Mal
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Re: IK Multimedia (Amplitube) Tonex pedal

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:31 am

Embenny wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:58 am


Is it the CS version? That's the free version, so they might be promoting it by listing it in your account/installer.

Try it for sure. I've not used TONEX yet, but I keep hearing that it's a contender at the high end of modern modeling in terms of playing feel. Worth a shot if the price of entry is just an installation.

I'm already invested in the AxeFX ecosystem, so I need to keep things simple to avoid option paralysis, but if I didn't have a hardware unit I was happy with, I'd be giving TONEX a fair shake.
There you go, that explains it. It is the "CS", which I had forgotten was IK Multimedia's nomenclature for restricted version/in app purchases version.

I'll probably install it, I'm a little curious, although I'm not sure what this could really do that Amplitube doesn't do, then again I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I like IK Multimedia and will be happy to check their new product out, I think they are a cool and innovative company and am happy to support them.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Help Me Go Ampless : Amp Sim Pedals Discussion

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:37 am

That being said, though, I am much more intrigued by the original amp sim pedals that kicked off this conversation.

I have a Tech 21 Sansamp GED 2112 rack unit arriving today to handle my bass guitar recording (and maybe live) needs, I'm not unhappy with the bass amp sims I have with Amplitube and some others, but I just want a simple unit with knobs that I can learn well and use quickly. I get very tired of wading through submenu after submenu on software running in software and I think I'll be looking for a way out.

I have been looking for a solution for that on guitar for a while, and haven't found it, the Iridium was lackluster in my opinion. But these pedals Todd is discussing seem great.

I don't need every amp in the world available to me in a pedal form, and if I could have dozens and dozens of actual amps in my room I bet I would spend more time fucking with them than I would actually recording with them and that's basically what happens with the bloated software.

But one good sounding amp sim that nailed a realistic and usable sound I could build on seems like just the thing.
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Re: Help Me Go Ampless : Amp Sim Pedals Discussion

Post by Embenny » Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:41 am

I figure this might be helpful for folks:

Real Amp vs TONEX vs Kemper vs Quad Cortex Comparison.

A pretty detailed analysis and A/B between a recording of a real amp alongside three profiles generated from the same amp/mic setup by TONEX, Kemper, and Neural DSP, although it's just one specific tone/gain level being examined. The really fascinating section for me was toward the end with the null test. For anyone not familiar, null tests are used by engineers to check how close two signals are to each other. You flip the phase of one and play both signals at unity gain, and see what is left over from the constructive and destructive interference. If the signals are identical, they null perfectly and you get silence. The more you can hear, the bigger the difference between the two signals, and whatever frequencies you hear are the ones that are different. So if you hear only high end in the null test, it means the lows and mids are identical but the highs are not, and so on. The TONEX was by far the closest on his null test.

A few thoughts as a former Kemper user: Profiling has its pros and cons. My AxeFX lets me adjust things like tone knobs and have them respond the way the real amp would. My Kemper's tone knobs were essentially post-processing; the profile is generated based on a snapshot of an amp with whatever settings were used at the time.

This became sort of a deal-breaker for me as an Offset user. I found that most amps were profiled by people using "the classics" - a Les Paul with PAFs or P90s, a Strat, or a Tele. The settings on the real amps that flatter those guitars weren't necessarily the ones that flattered my guitars. I used the Kemper quite happily for a few years, but I hated it for the first couple of months because I couldn't get anything to sound right.

I eventually found just a couple of profiles that really clicked with my JM and Jag, and then every tone I used was "post-processed" from that same profile that I generated using the profile editor (decreased gain, increased gain, decreased sharpness, increased pick attack, stuff like that).

TONEX seems to operate on the same principles, so I'd expect similar caveats. If you use "common" guitar setups, you'll find people who profiled amps that fit your guitars quite well. If you use weird guitars (like my G&L Z-coil Mustang), it'll probably take a fair bit of clicking through shitty-sounding profiles before you find something that really works.

That's a very different workflow from something like the Universal Audio unit, which takes the AxeFX-style approach of modeling all control interactions realistically. If you get the Blackface UA pedal, and your guitar sounds good through a real Blackface Fender, then you'll be able to twiddle the knobs and find those tones in there.

But if you use a TONEX profile (or whatever they call their patches, maybe the word "profile" is a Kemper trademark or something) based on a Blackface Deluxe, and the person capturing the profile cranked the treble to 8 because that's what they liked on their Goldtop LP, then you're getting a Blackface Deluxe with the treble set to 8, and maybe you only like that amp with the treble set to 3 or 4. A great example of this would be the Vox AC30, whose tone controls are interactive. The specific tones you get by playing with the treble and bass knobs will never be modelled by a profile, so you need to download one made with settings as close as possible to what you'd choose for your guitar.

The big advantage, though, is that you can create your own DIY profiles (if you have adequate gear and knowledge to set up the recording chain required). So, if you have a beloved amp with specific mods, speakers or settings you can't live without, you can capture them and enjoy the flexibility of going DI/reamping/saving patches/saving weight/etc.

They really offer a different user experience compared to the "analog modeling" approach. If you're not interested in capturing your own profiles, you need to be ready to just download/click through/audition a very large number of profiles to find the ones you like best. Each one is kinda like rolling up to some stranger's amp setup, plugging your guitar in, and not being allowed to fiddle with any knobs.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, because of course the modeler does have things like gain, treble, mid and bass knobs, but those alter the gain entering the model and the EQ of the pre- and post-model signal rather than what's happening inside the model itself, and tend to sound best in my experience when making modest corrections (same as when dealing with a recorded guitar track, really).

Just something to think about, because one approach might appeal more to you than the other. Profiles basically either sound good to you or don't, and require more auditioning but less deep editing. Analog models are far more malleable, which means less downloading and clicking through patches, but more time twisting knobs and/or diving into menus trying to get it to sound right.
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wooderson
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Re: Help Me Go Ampless : Amp Sim Pedals Discussion

Post by wooderson » Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:41 pm

Getting comfortable with a predefined EQ was tough when I tried a Kemper but DI profiles + IRs seem to be a big help with profilers - a change in IR can make such a huge difference in the response of the amp (though it won't solve an amp profiled for the world's darkest neck pickup) and you're not stuck with the capturers mic placement/speaker.

Amalgam Captures has put out a few commercial sets (and I expect more will follow, the Quad Cortex and Kemper profile industry will happily expand their market) - with their amp+cab models they have variations (bright/fat/thin/etc. clean/crunch/edge/cranked) and in the one pack of DI+IRs they have similar DI options and the included IRs are bright/warm/balanced/mix.

I've gotten better about it because on my actual amps I rarely do much in the way of EQ adjustment once I figure out what works with my Jazzmaster, between the SS/BS Mini and EAE Surveyor I've got a fair amount of EQ via pedals.

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Re: Help Me Go Ampless : Amp Sim Pedals Discussion

Post by Embenny » Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:51 pm

Totally agree, I love DI profiles, but they add a layer of complexity that not everybody would want. Some people love to get granular with these things, and others just want to scroll through 100 profiles until they hit the one that sounds great with no tweaking.

The biggest advantage I've found with custom/swappable cab IRs is that you can get two different amps to "gel" enough to switch between them during the same song. Going from a Fender to a Vox or a Marshall mid-song can sound jarring when the midrange character of the cab/mic combo suddenly changes. I find this the case with real amps too - I like to either run them simultaneously, or only change them when I change guitars or songs (or both). But if you're running both amps into the same cabinet with the same mic placement (or same IR), there's a significant common element there that can make the amp swap sound no less dramatic than turning some pedals on or off.
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Re: Help Me Go Ampless : Amp Sim Pedals Discussion

Post by Steadyriot. » Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:43 am

Embenny wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:51 pm
Totally agree, I love DI profiles, but they add a layer of complexity that not everybody would want. Some people love to get granular with these things, and others just want to scroll through 100 profiles until they hit the one that sounds great with no tweaking.
That's exactly what I did when I started setting up rigs on my Kemper; and how I still do it.
First I find an amp that I know I (would) like, and then just try the profiles untill I find one that clicks for me and with my main guitars. After that it's just tweaking the gain a bit, maybe some EQ and we're off to the races.
I find it really helps with option paralysis. There's so many amps out there, and even more profiles of them. Adding studio profiles, cabs and IR's to that mix and you'll never be able to try every option out there.
I currently run no more than 10 profiles and I don't think that list will ever go past 20 even though I have thousands of profiles. Hell I haven't even tried half of them. I just kinda like collecting them for the sport of it and the "you'll never know when you might need it" hoarding mentality without needing a storage unit.

Though I'd say, most of my guitars sound good with those same profiles so maybe I'm not as critical as some.. :P
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