Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

[MrShake]

"Sixties fuzz" has never been a term that sat well with me. Too diverse, too many flavors. But when I think of it, I think of that post-stones, pre-psychedelia buzzsaw sound. And there are two examples that blow me away.

The Yardbirds' "Stroll On" is a monster. That chunky rhythm guitar is explosive. I don't know how things got from The Beatles on Sullivan to that in so short a time. And I figure that was a pair of Tone Benders through Vox amps giving up a death rattle. So, I know where to go to get in that arena if I want those shades.

The other is The Shadows Of Knight's "I'm Gonna Make You Mine". What a nasty sound. Here, if you dare:

https://youtu.be/dmQxaM4wywg

They were from Chicago. Mid-'60s. All the photos I've seen of them indicate Gibsons and Rickenbackers.

Chicago means Gibson, 1966 means there are limited options for fuzz, and all that points to a Maestro FZ-1 or FZ-1A, right?

But... how?!?

If anyone has any inside info or anything, I'd love to finally find out somewhat officially. My jaw dropped when I heard that one in college.

Thanks in advance. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be looking up ways to get myself a Maestro.

[MechaBulletBill]

fuzzrites were knocking around as early as 1965 iirc. or an imported italian two-transistor vox perhaps?

[fuzzjunkie]

The Shadows of Knight were pretty popular with the garage band crowd. They’re featured on the Nuggets recordings.

All the fuzz tones that I have heard from them all sound like a Maestro to me. Pictures of them have them playing Gibson and Rickenbacker guitars, as you mentioned, and Fender amps.

There was a ‘60s fuzz box called the Knight fuzz, which I believe was based off the Fuzzrite, but the Shadows of Knight have that garage, pre-psychedelic fuzz tone and that’s usually a Maestro. You can tell by the grain and lack of sustain.

The Yardbirds fuzz was a Tonebender Mk1 and later a Tonebender Mk2. They (Beck and Page) wanted a fuzz with more sustain and had a Maestro fuzz reverse engineered to get them there. That was how the Tonebender Mk1 originated.

[del]

I'd think that a Bosstone, Maestro, or FuzzRite style fuzz would definitely get you into this fuzz territory

Some good easily available options might be the Analogman Peppermint Fuzz, any of the Basic Audio fuzzes that link to these originals (fuzzmondo, fuzz mutant, gnarly fuzz, zippy fuzz, spooky tooth, texsur fuzz, etc)... Really I'd think most modern fuzzes that have a bias control can probably get into this range - DOD Carcosa, MXR Variac Fuzz, JHS 3-Series Fuzz, etc. And the EHX Satisfaction is a Bosstone clone that is already prepared on the inside (with little notes, even) for mods that can make it even more vintage-sounding.

[fuzzjunkie]

any of the Basic Audio fuzzes that link to these originals (fuzzmondo, fuzz mutant, gnarly fuzz, zippy fuzz, spooky tooth, texsur fuzz.

Basic Audio is a good boutique option. Catalinbread makes a solid Fuzzrite.

The Basic Audio Spooky Tooth is probably the most versatile. Goes from Spaghetti western to Inagadavida pretty easily. He also makes more singular pedals like the Fuzzy One, which is an FZ-1 and the Marq Won is a Tonebender MK1. If you like both the “ It Always Happens That Way” and “Stroll On” fuzz tones, then I would recommend the Gnarly. It goes from FZ-1 to MK1 with a sweep of the texture knob.

[MechaBulletBill]

of the two fuzzrites i've tried, the one by toetags from canada killed the catalinbread catalin-DEAD

[sholkham]

One possibility could be the built in 'distortion' fuzz on Vox super beatle amps. I know that was used by some other garage bands of the era like the swamp rats.

[fuzzjunkie]

One possibility could be the built in 'distortion' fuzz on Vox super beatle amps. I know that was used by some other garage bands of the era like the swamp rats.

Probably not. All the pictures of Shadows of Knight that I have seen have Fender heads and cabinets behind them. The Vox 7-series amps were pretty rare. Vox barely made 100 of the Vox UL730 used on Sargent Pepper. Jimmy Page used those very cool fuzz tones on a couple of songs as well. The 7120 was only slightly more common. They were only introduced in late 1966, which is probably too late for this recording.

Those fuzz circuits are also a more singing, treble boosted fuzz tone with nice sustain, not the raw and ragged, all attack and no sustain sound the OP is looking for. That’s an FZ-1 into a clean amp with lots of headroom. The Gibson guitar gives it a little more punch. Listen to “And your bird can sing” versus “Satisfaction.”

[MrShake]

OSG rarely disappoints.

You're all fantastic, and I love seeing this kind of stuff get discussed around here -- for many of us, these nasty fuzzes are a part of our offset heritage, right?

So... maybe I had fuzz on the brain already, but I built a Fuzzrite between the first post and this one. Finished it a couple hours ago.





It's fantastic. I'd highly recommend one if you're into this kind of fuzz. I appreciate all the suggestions, it's always good to have an updated list of who's making a version of what out there, and this seems like a pretty good selection of "nasty mid-'60s fuzzes" to have. I'm definitely going to explore some of the suggestions, so you have my gratitude for sure. Those Basic Audio ones are

I mean, it's hard to say without the same rig and tape machine, but I'm inclined to think those leaning toward the FZ-1 are right. This Fuzzrite sounds awesome, but there's some kind of complexity (if you could call it that) on that recording that I adore, and the Fuzzrite is equally aweome, but different, so far. (That said, still experimenting with it.)

Maybe it's the way I can hear the size of the room or the way the amp sounds like it's about to blow. But I definitely think I'm going to see if I can find a decent layout for a FZ-1 that uses semi-available transistors. I love perfectly vintage-accurate, but I'm willing to make some concessions for price, size, modern conveniences like DC inputs and LED lights, etc. Tone Benders (esp the Mk I) as well -- I love that sound, and I realize i can't get there 100% without real NOS germanium or whatever, but if my ham-fisted, available-parts Fuzzrite sounds this close/good, there's gotta be some decent cheap silicon substitutes out there for the Tone Bender or Maestro.

Either way, fuzz on you beautiful maniacs... thanks for weighing in. Let's keep discussing.

What's your favorite kind of fuzz that might have gotten those Nuggets sounds? And do you use a modern variant that gets you to the "same" sound a different way than vintage-spec?

[hulakatt]

Well, there's at least 2 different versions of the fuzzRITE and they sound pretty different. There's at least a Ge and an Si version. I have a few and the sound can vary pretty wildly from dark and wooly to stinging and sharp.

I have a fuzzRITE from Del Rey Custom Shop, Ashbass, an original vintage unit and an AM Peppermint Fuzz. The Peppermint isn't really a fuzzRITE (I don't think) but it's definitely in the same ballpark.

[MrShake]

Well, there's at least 2 different versions of the fuzzRITE and they sound pretty different. There's at least a Ge and an Si version. I have a few and the sound can vary pretty wildly from dark and wooly to stinging and sharp.

I have a fuzzRITE from Del Rey Custom Shop, Ashbass, an original vintage unit and an AM Peppermint Fuzz. The Peppermint isn't really a fuzzRITE (I don't think) but it's definitely in the same ballpark.

I discovered some photos somewhere of a repair job I believe you did to a Fuzzrite, and they were not only some of the best detail pics I've seen of the inside of one of these, but amazing in how they're barely put together in some ways.

So, about that Si/Ge Fuzzrite thing, people seem to say that only the first couple hundred were germanium and they pretty quickly shifted to silicon. I've checked out online videos comparing them, and y'know, nice flavors. But as a history guy, I wonder how many of the "classic Fuzzrite" sounds were actually made with the germanium one? I feel like in the modern era, germanium has more alleged mojo (no offense as it may be one's preference, I just mean in pedal marketing), but I wonder if that has something to do with the Ge Vero layouts seeming more prevalent when I was searching.

Of those first, say, 250, how many were thrashed, trashed, or abandoned, and of the ones that survived, I wonder how many made it to hit songs?

The variance in units when it comes to vintage fuzz fascinates me. The "why" part is clear, it's the ripple effect. It's really cool that you've been able to try a few, I imagine they each have their own personality.

Which is why I'd love to have something LIKE that "I'm Gonna Make You Mine" fuzz. I can't perfectly recreate that (nor would I want to just imitate) without that '60s Gibson, specific amp, that mic, preamp, and multitrack. But something close? Hoo boy, the fun I would have with a sound like that.

[hulakatt]

I've read that the first 250 were Ge and then the bulk of production was Si but I've also read that the first 250 were on something like a perf board and then regular production Ge versions had a normal circuit board and then they switched to Si on a circuit board. I tend to think the latter scenario to be more likely if nothing else but for the time frame. They started making the fuzzRITE in what? '65? Si transistors weren't that readily available until later in the 60's. Mosrite was cranking them out at a higher rate than that.

Yeah, it probably was my pics from the vintage one I repaired you saw. Let me know if I should shoot some more! I'm still kinda not over how not remotely roadworthy the construction was. I mean, the board was just kinda floating in the case with some tape wrapped around it so it didn't short out!

Remember, the one I have was ripped out of the signal chain by the bass player using it at the time and thrown into the audience for it's intermittant behaviour. My family member recovered it and only through their hoarder like tendancies towards gear has it survived in a drawer for decades until I fixed it.

[MrShake]

Excellent points. I hadn't really traced the timeline myself, so good eye. I also hadn't yet read about the perfboard -> germanium, circuit board -> silicon, so thanks for that.

Consider this an open invite to take/post any shots of that you'd care to. That tape wrap was amazing. And while the thread is ostensibly about a Maestro, bring on the pre-'67 fuzz boxes.

And I realize my phrasing above may have sounded dismissive of the Ge stuff, but just to clarify, I loooove those. That "nice flavors" wording meaning that they're both cool, they're both distinctly a Fuzzrite timbre, but they're a little different.

I guess that's what has me so impressed with that quick and dirty beginner build. Refining pot values will bring it closer, lower-gain transistors will close the gap to "vintage accurate" even more - not that I'm chasing that. But ultimately, it still sounds pretty much like a Fuzzrite. I've got a board full of ripping '60s style fuzzes and I could pick this one out of an audio lineup most likely.

So, now I'm debating whether I try to build an FZ-1 or [EDIT: buy] one of the suggestions above down the road. I just prefer "close enough" with modern components to sourcing NOS stuff that may need replacement.

[Jaguar018]

While this is nothing that you don't already know, the thing that kills me about vintage style fuzzes is that the same thing that is so great about them is also what makes them sort of a pain.

Sometimes the fuzz sounds like a rip-roaring dream and then on some other day it will be missing that je ne sais quois. It gives fuzz freaks an excuse to chase down multiple pedals of the same circuits because the slightest variations make serious differences.

Someone should train a dog to sniff out the ideal diodes. You could make a fortune!

[hulakatt]

Excellent points. I hadn't really traced the timeline myself, so good eye. I also hadn't yet read about the perfboard -> germanium, circuit board -> silicon, so thanks for that.

Consider this an open invite to take/post any shots of that you'd care to. That tape wrap was amazing. And while the thread is ostensibly about a Maestro, bring on the pre-'67 fuzz boxes.

And I realize my phrasing above may have sounded dismissive of the Ge stuff, but just to clarify, I loooove those. That "nice flavors" wording meaning that they're both cool, they're both distinctly a Fuzzrite timbre, but they're a little different.

I guess that's what has me so impressed with that quick and dirty beginner build. Refining pot values will bring it closer, lower-gain transistors will close the gap to "vintage accurate" even more - not that I'm chasing that. But ultimately, it still sounds pretty much like a Fuzzrite. I've got a board full of ripping '60s style fuzzes and I could pick this one out of an audio lineup most likely.

So, now I'm debating whether I try to build an FZ-1 or [EDIT: buy] one of the suggestions above down the road. I just prefer "close enough" with modern components to sourcing NOS stuff that may need replacement.

I'll take some more pics later then, just for you

For the love of old Mosrite and Maestro fuzzes, check out https://www.delreycustomshop.com/. I have their FuzzMITE and their Marshall Supa Fuzz and I'm pretty happy with both, just very well made fuzzes. I'd like to pick up one of their Maestro fuzzes too.