"FUCKING YES!" - the Boss RE-2/202 hype thread

[fever606]

I’ve never gotten the wow + flutter “hype” with tape emulations… a properly maintained Space Echo will have almost none, while only the worst dying-motor-RE-201 will have nowhere near the seasick modulation that the extreme settings on the RE-20 or El Capistan can conjure…

[Sauerkraut]

I agree the El Capistan can go a little crazy, though you can simple dial that down, so I don’t have any issues with it personally. Sounds to me like you haven’t spent much time with an RE-20, or you have some special version, because as far as I know there’s no way to affect its modulation.

[fever606]

I haven’t… I actually meant to edit that out of my post and rephrase it to be a comment about the theoretical warble on the RE-2 (which is just conjecture based on it’s “Wow & Flutter” control).

My point stands about El Cap, though…

[fuzzjunkie]

I’ve never gotten the wow + flutter “hype” with tape emulations… a properly maintained Space Echo will have almost none, while only the worst dying-motor-RE-201 will have nowhere near the seasick modulation that the extreme settings on the RE-20 or El Capistan can conjure…

Yes. Completely agree. And it’s not limited to just the 2 you mentioned. All of them have exaggerated tape degradation, tape hiss, dirty heads, wobbly motors, or wow and flutter settings that are too extreme for a functional tape echo.

Not that you can’t create interesting sounds with them, but that so many users clamor for them and spend an inordinate amount of time emphasizing those features in reviews. I understand them being a feature that a modern player would want, but modern players buy the marketing expecting “this is what a real tape echo sounds like,” and it’s absolutely not.

At least not a working example used in a studio setting during the ‘60s -‘80s.

[Sauerkraut]

I’ve never gotten the wow + flutter “hype” with tape emulations… a properly maintained Space Echo will have almost none, while only the worst dying-motor-RE-201 will have nowhere near the seasick modulation that the extreme settings on the RE-20 or El Capistan can conjure…

Yes. Completely agree. And it’s not limited to just the 2 you mentioned.

So, but… doesn’t that make the inclusion of a wow & flutter control good news? It should mean you can turn it off completely if you like (as on the Capistan).

Also, is it really that extreme with the re-20? Personally, I really don’t know. I compared it to an original, well-maintained re-201 just once, something like 15 years ago, and the re-20 actually sounded really good. Not as good as, obviously, but impressive for a digital emulation and really not close to seasick or even exaggerated. At least not to me or the long time owner of the re-201.

Or is the availability of over-the-top warble in the first place what annoys you?

[fuzzjunkie]

I can’t speak for fever606, but I was talking about tape echo emulation (pedals and software) in general.

In a lot of cases the marketing emphasizes “grit” and “tape hiss” and “crinkle” and the ubiquitous “wow and flutter” as the main component of the “sound of real tape.”’And none of that is the sound of real tape. The sound of tape is about the compression and EQ characteristics that is imparted by recording to tape, the way the echoes mesh with or fall under the direct signal, and the way the repeats degrade.

A lot (most) don’t accurately emulate that. The marketing doesn’t emphasize that, but the special effects found in poorly maintained units instead, because “Wow, cool sounds!”

And very often you can create cool and interesting sounds. But they’re not the sounds of a real tape echo. That’s the part I have a problem with.

I have no hands on experience with an RE-20. A few friends have used them, so I have heard them and it didn’t seem particularly extreme in the settings they were using.
I do have an El Capistan and a Timefactor and several software emulations of Space Echoes. I also have a properly functioning Roland RE-301.

The El Capistan does not have the echo falling under and meshing with the direct signal effect of real tape. The Timefactor rolls of the top EQ, but not the bottom, which is an important tape characteristic, so the echoes mesh, but they don’t fall away properly. To me, knowing what a real tape echo sounds like (I used to own an RE-201 and an Echoplex-3) that’s more important to me than misguided attempts at extreme tape fluctuations.

[Sauerkraut]

Thanks for the excellent explanation.

I suppose there isn’t yet a digital tape echo emulator that would fully meet your requirements. I doubt the re-2 will be. The re-20, as far as I’m aware, was not misleadingly marketed with an emphasis on its tape modulation capabilities, as it offered none. The re-2, with its wow & flutter control may well be marketed that way. We’ll find out soon enough.

[burpgun]

As a person who just bought another Line 6 Echo Park, this Boss looks cool. I have no experience with "real" tape echo, so I've always embraced the emulated "wow and flutter" on its own terms. For me, the sound actually harkened back more the Tape Delay plug I first heard in Logic back in the early 2000s. It's a cool sound but like a lot of things, best used on the sparing side.

[JSett]

My RE-201 has barely any natural wow and flutter and it's still on its original capstan and motor. To get any real warble or madness going on I have to put in the garbage tape it came with... which is crumpled, taped and repaired and probably a hazard to the machine itself!

I can see me, when I buy this new pedal, probably enjoying dialing in a little extra for shits and giggles though.

[hulakatt]

I have so much more interest in this than the RE-20. I can't explain why at all. Despite that I love large and impractical pedals, I just don't care for the large format Boss stuff?

[hulakatt]

Yeah, I have yet to play any actual tape delay that has as much wow and flutter or degradation as any of the pedals based on tape delays offer. I think my TTE has cleaner repeats than my DM-2w. The TTE still has gorgeous thick, very textured delays but they're still clean.

[Sauerkraut]

Yeah, I have yet to play any actual tape delay that has as much wow and flutter or degradation as any of the pedals based on tape delays offer. I think my TTE has cleaner repeats than my DM-2w. The TTE still has gorgeous thick, very textured delays but they're still clean.

I thought the DM2w was an analog, bucket brigade type delay, not a tape delay emulator. I have an 80s DOD FX90 analog delay that’s the warbliest thing I’ve ever heard, but it’s only being its own charming self - definitely not trying to emulate anything.

On my other bucket brigade delay, a DOD Rubberneck, you can dial in the warbly from clean to mad chorus effect, but that’s just a fun feature of a bucket brigade delay.

[hulakatt]

I thought the DM2w was an analog, bucket brigade type delay, not a tape delay emulator. I have an 80s DOD FX90 analog delay that’s the warbliest thing I’ve ever heard, but it’s only being its own charming self - definitely not trying to emulate anything.

No, you're right, the DM-2w is not a tape delay emulator. I've played several but I just can't think of them right now. Anyway, the delays I've played with actual tape have generally been cleaner than delay pedals (outside of digital delays).

[bubba899]

I can’t speak for fever606, but I was talking about tape echo emulation (pedals and software) in general.

In a lot of cases the marketing emphasizes “grit” and “tape hiss” and “crinkle” and the ubiquitous “wow and flutter” as the main component of the “sound of real tape.”’And none of that is the sound of real tape. The sound of tape is about the compression and EQ characteristics that is imparted by recording to tape, the way the echoes mesh with or fall under the direct signal, and the way the repeats degrade.

A lot (most) don’t accurately emulate that. The marketing doesn’t emphasize that, but the special effects found in poorly maintained units instead, because “Wow, cool sounds!”

And very often you can create cool and interesting sounds. But they’re not the sounds of a real tape echo. That’s the part I have a problem with.

I have no hands on experience with an RE-20. A few friends have used them, so I have heard them and it didn’t seem particularly extreme in the settings they were using.
I do have an El Capistan and a Timefactor and several software emulations of Space Echoes. I also have a properly functioning Roland RE-301.

The El Capistan does not have the echo falling under and meshing with the direct signal effect of real tape. The Timefactor rolls of the top EQ, but not the bottom, which is an important tape characteristic, so the echoes mesh, but they don’t fall away properly. To me, knowing what a real tape echo sounds like (I used to own an RE-201 and an Echoplex-3) that’s more important to me than misguided attempts at extreme tape fluctuations.

I really like this explanation. I have the el Cap and really like the sound it gives me live and the sound on sound is fun for ambiance. Having done some recordings with an RE-201 It imparted something really specific we've not been able to recreate with plugins or running the el cap as an insert on other channels. I think the point you make about the compression is particularly interesting. The question I have is what pedals out there do capture that sound more accurately? (as much as that is possible)

[fuzzjunkie]

I can’t speak for fever606, but I was talking about tape echo emulation (pedals and software) in general.

In a lot of cases the marketing emphasizes “grit” and “tape hiss” and “crinkle” and the ubiquitous “wow and flutter” as the main component of the “sound of real tape.”’And none of that is the sound of real tape. The sound of tape is about the compression and EQ characteristics that is imparted by recording to tape, the way the echoes mesh with or fall under the direct signal, and the way the repeats degrade.

A lot (most) don’t accurately emulate that. The marketing doesn’t emphasize that, but the special effects found in poorly maintained units instead, because “Wow, cool sounds!”

And very often you can create cool and interesting sounds. But they’re not the sounds of a real tape echo. That’s the part I have a problem with.

I have no hands on experience with an RE-20. A few friends have used them, so I have heard them and it didn’t seem particularly extreme in the settings they were using.
I do have an El Capistan and a Timefactor and several software emulations of Space Echoes. I also have a properly functioning Roland RE-301.

The El Capistan does not have the echo falling under and meshing with the direct signal effect of real tape. The Timefactor rolls of the top EQ, but not the bottom, which is an important tape characteristic, so the echoes mesh, but they don’t fall away properly. To me, knowing what a real tape echo sounds like (I used to own an RE-201 and an Echoplex-3) that’s more important to me than misguided attempts at extreme tape fluctuations.

I really like this explanation. I have the el Cap and really like the sound it gives me live and the sound on sound is fun for ambiance. Having done some recordings with an RE-201 It imparted something really specific we've not been able to recreate with plugins or running the el cap as an insert on other channels. I think the point you make about the compression is particularly interesting. The question I have is what pedals out there do capture that sound more accurately? (as much as that is possible)

I like the El Cap for what it does. It’s 95% there and the difference isn’t something the audience would care about. Since I have a working Roland tape echo, I use that for recording and the pedal for stage. I think the Echoplex mode is a little more accurate for me, especially when you have a preamp booster after it, which I do.

Another thing that is lacking is all the playback head options. The El Cap has the ones I use most, so I am fine with that, and where it doesn’t I can use the Timefactor. A lot of the time I cascade a single repeat from the El Capistan into the Timefactor, so I don’t need the RE-2 myself, but it does have all the rhythmic delay options covered.

Lastly, the RE-201 and RE-301 have different preamp circuits and head spacing, so they don’t sound exactly the same even though they’re both Roland tape echoes. I don’t know if the RE-2 factors in the preamp sound or not, but the El Capistan doesn’t.