Converting PCB to HW Point to Point Boards

[øøøøøøø]

As stated above, I really like the '65 (black panel) DRRI.

I am much less impressed with the '68 (silver panel) "interpretation" (I think it'd be slightly misleading to call it a "reissue")

[Larsongs]

I do want to go play a new 68 Deluxe Reverb.. I like what I’ve read & the YouTubes that I’ve watched.. They have some great features & seem very versatile. They seem to cover traditional & modern Sounds quite well.. It could a solution..

One of the Boutiques that have been mentioned might also be a consideration but so hard to tell without playing.. I certainly won’t commit to buy without trying.. So? I don’t know…

Definitely try before you buy, and don't put any stock in Youtube demos. I really didn't love the '68 Custom' reissues I tried out for an hour or so when I was looking (ended up with a handmade replica of a Princeton Reverb from Lucas Miles in Melbourne - for around the same price). They didn't sound as good as the '65' types (PRRI/DRRI).

Jack of all trades and master of none IMHO. One of them had major cabinet rattles too.

A couple things I find interesting about the 68 Reissue Reverb are having Reverb & Tremelo on both the Normal & the Vibrato Channels plus the ability to jump both Channels & play them simultaneously… Those 2 Features really peak my curiosity.. They also come with a Celestion Spkr although it’s one I’m not familiar with.. I have a Greenback in my AC-10 & an Alnico Blue in my AC-15… I like both of those Spkrs..

I don’t want to buy an Amp & have to Mod or Re-build it… I have to try one & go from there..

I was interested in the Mesa Boogie California Tweed but have read that Techs hate them & don’t want to work on them.. That’s put me off a bit…

[Powdered Toast Man]

Anything beyond that and we get into “the tone is best at certain phases of the moon” territory—in other words, quasi-religion

With that in mind, I felt I could hear a difference in quality between the amps in this video, a stock PRRI and one of the Fender handwired ones. Maybe you will too, regardless, you could make the case that Fender can build a better Princeton or Deluxe than the stock reissues using either handwired method or the boards.

My point being that if someone were to play a very expensive or custom made handwired amp, it might sound better than a stock Fender amp or something, simply because it is made to a higher standard and not because of any inherent flaw or benefit with either method.

The reason being those two amps come equipped with different speakers. Go to the part where they plug the PRRI into the 64PR cabinet and then it gets murky because even they don't really want to admit it sounds almost the same.

[Powdered Toast Man]

I can't think of a more pointless waste of money than ripping a perfectly functional PCB board out and inserting a hand wired turret board in terms of cost to benefit ratio.

The hierarchy of amp mods that are an impact tone are in this order from most change to least:
1) Speakers
2) Tubes
3) Output transformer
4) Internal components

Unless your board is completely toast due to a component failure, this is a fool's errand. This is the amp version of putting PIO caps in your guitar. And as a side effect you'll likely decrease the resale value of the amp rather than increase it. Buyers are EXTREMELY picky when it comes to literally anything that isn't 100% OEM on an amp (I've had buyers turn their nose up because the speaker(s) was non-original).

[øøøøøøø]

I can't think of a more pointless waste of money than ripping a perfectly functional PCB board out and inserting a hand wired turret board in terms of cost to benefit ratio.

The hierarchy of amp mods that are an impact tone are in this order from most change to least:
1) Speakers
2) Tubes
3) Output transformer
4) Internal components

Unless your board is completely toast due to a component failure, this is a fool's errand. This is the amp version of putting PIO caps in your guitar. And as a side effect you'll likely decrease the resale value of the amp rather than increase it. Buyers are EXTREMELY picky when it comes to literally anything that isn't 100% OEM on an amp (I've had buyers turn their nose up because the speaker(s) was non-original).

While I agree with this premise, I'll just add that the cabinet material (and baffle) can also have a surprisingly large influence... probably somewhere between your numbers 2 and 3

Replace an MDF or HDF cabinet/baffle with lightweight pine (thin plywood baffle) and the difference is surprisingly-noticeable.

The old Silvertone amps (and cabs) made of masonite... I'm of the opinion that those light masonite cabs are a pretty serious factor in why those amps sound the way they do.

[Larsongs]

I can't think of a more pointless waste of money than ripping a perfectly functional PCB board out and inserting a hand wired turret board in terms of cost to benefit ratio.

The hierarchy of amp mods that are an impact tone are in this order from most change to least:
1) Speakers
2) Tubes
3) Output transformer
4) Internal components

Unless your board is completely toast due to a component failure, this is a fool's errand. This is the amp version of putting PIO caps in your guitar. And as a side effect you'll likely decrease the resale value of the amp rather than increase it. Buyers are EXTREMELY picky when it comes to literally anything that isn't 100% OEM on an amp (I've had buyers turn their nose up because the speaker(s) was non-original).

I totally agree.. That is why in the beginning of this Thread I said,

“If my PCB ever burns out it would be cool to replace it with Point to Point Hand Wired Board”..

I should have said, would it be cool….

[Powdered Toast Man]

I can't think of a more pointless waste of money than ripping a perfectly functional PCB board out and inserting a hand wired turret board in terms of cost to benefit ratio.

The hierarchy of amp mods that are an impact tone are in this order from most change to least:
1) Speakers
2) Tubes
3) Output transformer
4) Internal components

Unless your board is completely toast due to a component failure, this is a fool's errand. This is the amp version of putting PIO caps in your guitar. And as a side effect you'll likely decrease the resale value of the amp rather than increase it. Buyers are EXTREMELY picky when it comes to literally anything that isn't 100% OEM on an amp (I've had buyers turn their nose up because the speaker(s) was non-original).

I totally agree.. That is why in the beginning of this Thread I said,

“If my PCB ever burns out it would be cool to replace it with Point to Point Hand Wired Board”..

I should have said, would it be cool….

Your proposition was theoretical, however I've seen people do it. Hoffman has an entire business going selling PTP drop in boards.

[Larsongs]

Is there a real noticeable Sound difference if you did do change out the PCB Board to HW?

[øøøøøøø]

Is there a real noticeable Sound difference if you did do change out the PCB Board to HW?

Short answer: no.

At least, not that'd be attributable to PCB versus turret/eyelet/PTP/whatever

Is it at least theoretically possible that you'd do a board swap and end up accidentally replacing out-of-spec components with in-spec components, or have components on different end of a tolerance range? Theoretically, but even this would probably not be a big driver of audible difference in a guitar amp.

For reliability's sake I swapped the poor-quality PCB in my Pro Junior with a turret board from Hoffman.

This one did behave slightly differently after the swap, but here's the catch... the Hoffman board was not a strict 1:1 reproduction of the original circuit. It deleted a few components that they must've deemed "unnecessary," chiefly a Zobel network across the OT primary.

It wanted to subtly ring and chirp under overdrive (making the distortion sound subtly more harsh) until I put that Zobel network back in... then it was the amp I remembered (despite a few other minor changes around the phase inverter).

So you've really gotta watch and make sure you're truly replacing like-for-like.

[Larsongs]

It would be crucial to get the correct Specs for sure. Otherwise it seems like it would be pointless.. Actually it pretty much seems pointless after reading all the comments about it..

[øøøøøøø]

Like anything else, it’s best assumed pointless unless there’s a clearly-defined reason for it

In the pro junior, I was experiencing periodic failures due to cracked solder joints on the PCB-mount tube sockets

I also wanted a more elegant way to add adjustable bias (to do so on the stock PCB requires a bit of a bodge)

So it made sense to just rebuild the amp with chassis-mount tube sockets and a turret board in that case

[Larsongs]

Like anything else, it’s best assumed pointless unless there’s a clearly-defined reason for it

In the pro junior, I was experiencing periodic failures due to cracked solder joints on the PCB-mount tube sockets

I also wanted a more elegant way to add adjustable bias (to do so on the stock PCB requires a bit of a bodge)

So it made sense to just rebuild the amp with chassis-mount tube sockets and a turret board in that case

That’s a good reason.. Is there much difference in cost between a PTP & PCB Boards?

[øøøøøøø]

That’s a good reason.. Is there much difference in cost between a PTP & PCB Boards?

It sort of depends.

It’s cheaper than ever to design a custom PCB and have it manufactured. I’ve designed many of my own for equipment I’ve built for my studio(s), using JLCPCB in China.

It’s really pretty miraculous… if I upload Gerber files (the industry standard manufacturing CAD file format) today, I can have a minimum order of five high quality finished PCBs of my design, to my spec, and in my favorite color at my door in about a week. Total cost outlay: about 10-20 bucks including shipping, depending on the size of the PCB and shipping speed.

On the other hand, if I were to specify non-standard features like extra-thick substrate, thicker copper pour, gold plated contacts, etc. the price goes up considerably…. like 5x as much or even more, just for changing one parameter

A normal PCB without the special features (good enough for 95% of audio applications at least) is cheaper than sourcing turret board or eyelet board, and easier to assemble, too.

But if I needed something special like an extra-thick PCB for some reason, the turret board would likely be cheaper (but also more labor intensive).

The main reason you see PCBs used in more cheap amps is manufacturing cost/speed. Automated pick-and-place and wave flow soldering can manufacture completed boards with less human involvement.

Going even further, modern surface-mount components can allow boards with much higher component density (parts for a given size) than the old through-hole style. This has obvious cost advantages, and it also makes many more things possible (and also more affordable, less wasteful, etc.). If you like mini pedals like the MINI series from Ibanez, or highly functional digital devices in pedal form factor (like the Eventide H9), you have surface-mount PCBs to thank.

But should something need service, turret board will likely have a service cost advantage in a guitar amp, because components can generally be replaced one at a time, from the top, without removing or lifting the board (which is super involved and time consuming in tube amps with a lot of flying leads and off-board parts—pricey when paying a tech’s hourly bench rate)

So there are practical advantages and disadvantages to each… but I’m skeptical of an operational benefit to either (in terms of how they sound).

One exception: in some rare cases, certain SMT (surface-mount) components have shown some operational differences from through-hole parts that can be measured. But this is rare, mostly in the past, and doesn’t come up much in tube guitar amps anyway

[hulakatt]

I don’t want to do it now… IMO, the Fender 65 PRRI Amps are as perfect, out of the box, Amp you can buy… Without any upgrades.I might try some better Tubes but the GT’s in this sound surprisingly good! As does the Stock Speaker.. I’ve been thinking of trying some higher quality Tubes though..

In the future if the PCB goes out I might opt for a complete HW Point to Point Board if the price isn’t crazy… Maybe a Mercury Transformer too..

Any of the PRRI I've played sounded much better than any of the vintage PR's I've played.
I find swapping tubes to be really fine tuning an amp and rarely with any huge results.
Swapping speakers is by far the biggest change in any amp!

I wouldn't look into swapping to a handwired board unless your current board bites the dust, then it would be a fun and reliable upgrade. I can highly recommend sending your amp in to Alessandro for the conversion if you don't want to (or aren't comfortable with) building your own. Alessandro enjoys an excellent reputation in building remarkably well engineered amps that rival the aesthetics of high end tube stereo gear. He's kind of an audiophile and a details guy. I have a set of their headphones and they are excellent.

I really wouldn't recommend "upgrading" to a Merc Mag transformer. They cost twice as much or more as other aftermarket transformers that are built equally as well, if not better. My first recommendation for new transformers would be Heyboer. For years, I've happily recommended ClassicTone but they went out of business early in the pandemic. I also hear really good things about EdCor and am planning on using a set in an upcoming project build.

[Larsongs]

I definitely agree the 65 PRRI’s are great sounding Amps right out of the box… 2 of my friends have mint BF Vintage Princetons which are great sounding too.. But, I think Fender really got the 65 PRRI’s right..

When I bought mine I planned to mod the Tubes about 6-7 years ago but there’s nothing offensive in the sound so I haven’t bothered..

My 65 DRRI, on the other hand, is another story. I want try better Tubes & see if that improves the Sound.. Then try it with some of my other Spkr Cab’s.. Then maybe change the Spkr. But that’s as far as I want to go..

If the PRRI’s PCB should fail I’ll definitely look into getting an exact spec P2P replacement….. If it isn’t crazy $$$…