Help Me Pick an Amp for my Bandmate!

[panoramic]

Yeah... uhh 40W is loud as hell. Show up at a venue with a PA and you're going to have that thing on 2 the entire night. 15-20W with a very efficient (i.e. sensitive) speaker (99-100 db or so) is the way to go.

I'm with the the DR crew here (and I'm not really a Fender cleans guy). 22W is a sweet spot, and with an efficient speaker you should have more than enough volume on tap. The inherent mid-scoop on these should also help the with the two guitars sitting in the mix together nicely.

I've got nothing against the HRD series, but they're way too loud, and those audio taper volume pots exacerbate the issues with getting the volume dialed in properly. They don't sound *bad* though, if anything they're just generic and a bit bland, but that's actually good if it's a house/backline amp and you need versatility. Don't have any issues with the Blues Juniors either, same basic sound, a workable utility amp. Take all of this with a grain of salt though, I'll play through basically anything I don't have to schlep around NYC to the gig.

I digress though, just get a DR.

I can't disagree with the sound of the DR being better and 40watts is loud as sin in many situations. I think if the pricepoint is an issue the HRD is GREAT for cheap. I just turn the master volume way down on mine and cross my fingers when i turn it on. I gig with a blackface bandmaster mostly, this is my "just in case" amp for sketchy shows and outdoor stuff.

[Dr Tony Balls]

I just turn the master volume way down on mine

Not digging on you personally, but most people would sound a lot better if they had appropriately sized amps instead of going with the "overkill then tame it with the master volume" approach. Master volume controls are fine, but they are best served when used sparingly. There was far too much shit going on in the 80's and 90's when people thought they needed 100 watt guitar amps and then cranked down the master and it sounds like compressed garbage. 20 watts is loud enough for most (seriously) and an amp will sound better running closer to full capacity.

[garyfanclub]

I just turn the master volume way down on mine

Not digging on you personally, but most people would sound a lot better if they had appropriately sized amps instead of going with the "overkill then tame it with the master volume" approach. Master volume controls are fine, but they are best served when used sparingly. There was far too much shit going on in the 80's and 90's when people thought they needed 100 watt guitar amps and then cranked down the master and it sounds like compressed garbage. 20 watts is loud enough for most (seriously) and an amp will sound better running closer to full capacity.

Yep, exactly. MV is no bueno. To your point, it's just a way for people to justify buying a monster amp that's beyond (99% likely) what they need.

Been playing in NYC for a few years now, and not once have I have been in a situation or venue where I needed anything more than 20W. I'm usually running 15-20W 1x12 combos and it's just about perfect. That'd be borderline unmic'd in a big room, but I've yet to encounter that here. In that case, it's just good to have an efficient speaker (tends to help A LOT, and can sometimes make a 20W amp sound like a much bigger one).

It's also helpful to have someone play your guitar and walk to the back of the room so you have a better sense of how loud things can get. Chances are you're louder and clearer than you thought!

I've also recently started using a volume pedal, not just for swells, but for controlling the overall mix - allows you to turn the amp up a bit to get it cooking and then back off to where you need to be.

[andy_tchp]

Agreed on the HRD probably of the options above. Though I also agree that they are far from reliable - I played one for a long time when I used to tour just because it did the job and I didn't want to bring out my vintage stuff, but I had to repair/switch it out more than once.

Yet you'd recommend it over a Deluxe Reverb?

[Surfysonic]

Since there has been some disagreements to using 35-40 watt amps, fair enough. It's sort of subjective, isn't it? What kind of music, how big of venue, how hard-hitting the drummer (if one in band) is, etc. I'm only speaking from a surf/punk background where things can get pretty noisy, even in small, basement or hole-in-the-wall clubs. My past few bands' drummers were beasts. When I played out, I initially used a HRD III but then moved on to a Fender '63 Reissue Vibroverb.

I get that a lot of venues don't want loud bands per restrictive civic codes and such.

If you want to play with less wattage, then my vote would be for a Princeton Reverb if the band mix is quiet enough (or mic the amp). If that's not an option, then sure, go with a Fender Deluxe Reverb. Would the Fender Super-Sonic 22 be viable? I had one for like 5 minutes as a rehearsal space amp for a project that fell apart, so I moved it on.

[JSett]

22w wouldn't touch the fucking sides in my band, or in most of the little/medium punk venues I attend or play. Nowhere near enough volume to keep any clarity going alongside a drummer.

I've had to repair a friend's DRRI about 4 times in the last 6 years. For the amount they cost I'd want better tbh.

[Dr Tony Balls]

Yep, exactly. MV is no bueno.

I wouldnt say hands down its no good, but everything in moderation. Also FWIW i've never seen a mass market amp use one of the preferred methods for implementing a master volume. They can sound better!

Since there has been some disagreements to using 35-40 watt amps, fair enough. It's sort of subjective, isn't it? What kind of music, how big of venue, how hard-hitting the drummer (if one in band) is, etc.

Yep its very subjective and most people ignore the most fundamental thing: THE SPEAKER(S). Its very easy to compare output power because that's listed with a number and we can all say "well 40 is more than 30 ergo its louder" but the truth is its just not that simple. If you were testing everything through a common speaker setup, then yes a 40 watt amp is louder than a 30 watt one. But is a 40W 1x12 louder than a 30W 2x12? I wouldnt wager on it. Put a HRD next to an AC30 and tell me what wins. Will a deluxe reverb into a 4x12 be loud as hell? Absolutely.

22w wouldn't touch the fucking sides in my band, or in most of the little/medium punk venues I attend or play. Nowhere near enough volume to keep any clarity going alongside a drummer.

I've had to repair a friend's DRRI about 4 times in the last 6 years. For the amount they cost I'd want better tbh.

Again, speakers. Its likely plenty of power given a more efficient, larger speaker setup.

Also, not picking on you personally, but while we're at it the idea of distinction between a 20w amp and a 22w amp is just plain silly. The relationship between power and volume is not linear, and the rule of thumb is that (given common speaker setups) double the amp power translates to 10% more volume. So that 100W Marshall is only buying you 10% more volume than the 50W version. The idea of being able to hear the difference between 20 and 22 watts is nonsense.

Also what's breaking on the DRRI? The guts i've seen of those look pretty decent, the exception being the PCB for all the pots.

[Surfysonic]

Since there has been some disagreements to using 35-40 watt amps, fair enough. It's sort of subjective, isn't it? What kind of music, how big of venue, how hard-hitting the drummer (if one in band) is, etc.

Yep its very subjective and most people ignore the most fundamental thing: THE SPEAKER(S). Its very easy to compare output power because that's listed with a number and we can all say "well 40 is more than 30 ergo its louder" but the truth is its just not that simple. If you were testing everything through a common speaker setup, then yes a 40 watt amp is louder than a 30 watt one. But is a 40W 1x12 louder than a 30W 2x12? I wouldnt wager on it. Put a HRD next to an AC30 and tell me what wins. Will a deluxe reverb into a 4x12 be loud as hell? Absolutely.

Excellent point re: the speakers! I modded my 12W Fender Vaporizer with a pair of Jensen Vintage Alnico, 10", P10Q, 40W speakers. Much louder than the stock Vaporizer 12 Watt speakers.

[stevejamsecono]

Yep its very subjective and most people ignore the most fundamental thing: THE SPEAKER(S). Its very easy to compare output power because that's listed with a number and we can all say "well 40 is more than 30 ergo its louder" but the truth is its just not that simple. If you were testing everything through a common speaker setup, then yes a 40 watt amp is louder than a 30 watt one. But is a 40W 1x12 louder than a 30W 2x12? I wouldnt wager on it. Put a HRD next to an AC30 and tell me what wins. Will a deluxe reverb into a 4x12 be loud as hell? Absolutely.

This is something I'm trying to keep in mind for myself in this situation too. Since my guitar is 'more important' to the mix I'm wondering if I should have a smart-sized 2x10 or something to give me a bit more spread.

I think the issue I've run into in the past with sub 20 watts for me personally is I'd like a bit more headroom for volume knob work. I don't anticipate Liz having that need so I think she could get away with it.

Also probably should have put this in the opening post, but re: the music itself:

Sonically we're coming from a Pretenders/Divinyls/Cranberries sort of place in that the music is certainly rock but it's also very vocally oriented. We're not really going for mega fuzz or shoegaze or anything. We want to try and keep the onstage mix sensible so we aren't drowning that stuff out.

[marqueemoon]

Stage volume is largely dictated by the drummer. Given the tight space in the van your best gear strategy might be a smaller kit.
Then amps can also be smaller.

Given your description of the music a smaller/tight sounding kit could be a real plus.
Of course if the drummer is going to be using house kits or the kit is already pretty compact then never mind.

My thought on rhythm guitar sounds for this kind of music is even if your recorded sound is more pristine a little grit can be cool in a live setting.

[JSett]

Also, not picking on you personally, but while we're at it the idea of distinction between a 20w amp and a 22w amp is just plain silly....

...the idea of being able to hear the difference between 20 and 22 watts is nonsense.

I know it's not personal Tony

I don't think I ever said anything about 20w vs 22w did I?

And I was referring to 22w in the context of the aforementioned Deluxe Reverb, and its usual speaker compliment.

Also what's breaking on the DRRI? The guts i've seen of those look pretty decent, the exception being the PCB for all the pots.

A couple of times it was solder joints on the pots/input jacks, and it went through a weird phase of blowing tubes and took out some fuses for no obvious or apparent reason. Reverb tank gave up the ghost once too. They do seem pretty susceptible to noise issues with poor quality power too.

She's not hard on her gear either, and doesn't tour particularly heavy. Just shit luck.

I like the sound of the DRRI's but they're too loud for home and not loud enough for a band - if you're filling a room unmiked with a drummer of any fortitude (in my experience and opinion)

[Sauerkraut]

Yep its very subjective and most people ignore the most fundamental thing: THE SPEAKER(S). Its very easy to compare output power because that's listed with a number and we can all say "well 40 is more than 30 ergo its louder" but the truth is its just not that simple. If you were testing everything through a common speaker setup, then yes a 40 watt amp is louder than a 30 watt one. But is a 40W 1x12 louder than a 30W 2x12? I wouldnt wager on it. Put a HRD next to an AC30 and tell me what wins. Will a deluxe reverb into a 4x12 be loud as hell? Absolutely.

Couldn’t agree more. I have a 35W tube head. It offers the perfect middle ground for me: If I want to be able to run it at 3 or louder, I plug it into my 1x10“, if I need to be loud as hell or/and I just want a wider sound, I plug it into my 2x12“. I don’t need a <20 or a >50W amp, just the one head and two cabs. Well, that and a little 5W at home.

This is probably super obvious, but I also found that the size of the output transformer matters a lot, mostly for the low end; if I plug my 5W amp into my 2x12“, it‘s obviously going to be louder than through its 8“ speaker, but even at the same volume, it won’t have nearly as much low end as the 35W amp. Thats because the size of the output transformer affects the frequency response, bigger=wider, smaller=narrower. This is especially noticeable in the lower frequencies, as amplifying those requires more power.

[hexes]

Been playing in NYC for a few years now, and not once have I have been in a situation or venue where I needed anything more than 20W. I'm usually running 15-20W 1x12 combos and it's just about perfect. That'd be borderline unmic'd in a big room, but I've yet to encounter that here. In that case, it's just good to have an efficient speaker (tends to help A LOT, and can sometimes make a 20W amp sound like a much bigger one).

I mixed a LOT of shows at Mercury Lounge (and others) when I lived there. Their backline is amazing, but wayyy too powerful for a 150 cap room. AC-30, Twin Reverb, SVT with 8x10.

Most of the time, local nyc bands would keep it sounding very reasonable! but for out of town bands, I’d get the worst types of dudes complaining when I asked them to turn the twin from 8 down to 3.

being beamed in the face with 80 watts of bright guitar is not comfortable.

[Larsongs]

There’s a reason why Fender Deluxe Reverbs have been around so long & are used by so many Musicians. Unless you’re playing Stadiums or huge Venues Deluxe Reverbs work great in most Venues..

If your Drummer is drowning you all out you probably need a new Drummer.. How many Watt PA & how big are the Speaker Columns your Singers are singing through?

[Sauerkraut]

I’d get the worst types of dudes complaining when I asked them to turn the twin from 8 down to 3.

being beamed in the face with 80 watts of bright guitar is not comfortable.

Let me guess, the Black Lips? I’ve had the misfortune to run into them at festivals. Cranking MV Twins… couldn’t get out of the room fast enough.

Anyways, to steer back to the topic: how about a Vibrolux Reverb? They’re like Deluxe Reverbs, just better.