What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:10 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:58 am
Larsongs wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:39 am
tribi9 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:01 pm


It can be both too.
What this has to do with this Thread is????
The venn diagram of your responses in this thread and anti-vaxxers?

Both are about a refusal to accept reality and the facts that are handed to you by more informed people.
True reality…. One size does not fit all..

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Fiddy » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:08 am

So let's see, this amp:

-Needs to be priced like a Chinese amp, but be built in Arkansas.
-Needs to be a deluxe reverb and a vox AC30 but weight the same as a Zvex nano and use a special transformer of sorts.

Mmm ok..

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:57 am

You obviously haven't read this Thread!

Nothing about the Cost of Chinese.. I think I said about $1500-$1995.00. I'd rather see it built So Cal.. It doesn't need to be a Deluxe Reverb or an AC30?? Where are you getting that?? 15-22 Watt... 10" Speakers are ok.. I'd like it to be no bigger in size than a Deluxe Reverb..

Don't you guys realize these kinds of Amps already exist????? Maybe not totally perfect to my Specs, but close. How long before they can do it?? I think very soon..

I know...... "The Sky is falling!!!!"

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:26 am

Larsongs wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:57 am
It doesn't need to be a Deluxe Reverb or an AC30?? Where are you getting that??
Larsongs wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:52 pm
The idea is to have a small 20-30 Watt Combo Tube Amp that can do the Fender Sound & the Vox Sound in one Amp... plus have the ability to even blend the USA & Brit Sound via a Blend Control Knob..
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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by HarlowTheFish » Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:51 am

Okay because this is getting a little heated, here's an option:

These guys: https://www.frenzeltubeamps.com/

Frenzel makes a couple amps that are two independent channels (with separate inputs and volumes, so blending is more like a Jazz Bass type deal) -- the Deluxe 525 Plus, for example, is a 5E3 Deluxe and a Plexi. I think they're going about it the smart way, where it's separate preamp circuits going into one power amp, where the power amp is biased kinda cold so it's mostly just clean volume and power, and the preamp is doing the real heavy lifting with tone. They don't currently seem to offer a Fender/Vox model, but they also do custom work and their prices are very very good (especially for MIA). Primarily heads, pretty utilitarian looking, but having heard a couple they pump out some pretty righteous tone, so you can't argue that the system works.

I'm gonna be real and say that this is about as close as you're gonna get to what you're looking for without being unreasonable, either in size/weight, price, compromises, or (most likely) a combination of all of the above.

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:09 pm

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:26 am
Larsongs wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:57 am
It doesn't need to be a Deluxe Reverb or an AC30?? Where are you getting that??
Larsongs wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:52 pm
The idea is to have a small 20-30 Watt Combo Tube Amp that can do the Fender Sound & the Vox Sound in one Amp... plus have the ability to even blend the USA & Brit Sound via a Blend Control Knob..
Key word….. SMALL! There is nothing small about an AC30!

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:10 pm

HarlowTheFish wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:51 am
Okay because this is getting a little heated, here's an option:

These guys: https://www.frenzeltubeamps.com/

Frenzel makes a couple amps that are two independent channels (with separate inputs and volumes, so blending is more like a Jazz Bass type deal) -- the Deluxe 525 Plus, for example, is a 5E3 Deluxe and a Plexi. I think they're going about it the smart way, where it's separate preamp circuits going into one power amp, where the power amp is biased kinda cold so it's mostly just clean volume and power, and the preamp is doing the real heavy lifting with tone. They don't currently seem to offer a Fender/Vox model, but they also do custom work and their prices are very very good (especially for MIA). Primarily heads, pretty utilitarian looking, but having heard a couple they pump out some pretty righteous tone, so you can't argue that the system works.

I'm gonna be real and say that this is about as close as you're gonna get to what you're looking for without being unreasonable, either in size/weight, price, compromises, or (most likely) a combination of all of the above.
I appreciate your intelligent & informative contribution… I’ll check those out..

Thanks

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Fiddy » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:13 pm

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:26 am

It's MAYBE possible but if it costs $1000 its gonna be made pretty poorly. Keep in mind what you're talking about needs two speakers, and two output transformers, plus tubes, control, etc. The Fender that you mention is also a completely different bird than what you've requested as it's just a two channel amp. What needs to be done to satisfy and true Vox and a true Fender circuit in one box is not a two channel amp its two WHOLE amps in one box. The only thing you can really share is a chassis and power transformer.

I'm perfectly capable of thinking far outside of the box but you may want to reread a lot of the information I already posted. There are many traits in a Vox circuit and a Fender circuit that simply cannot be shared in a single amp, as i've noted. These are the limitations that you're dealing with.
We appreciate your intelligent & informative contribution…
Definitely, good points.

Thanks

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:49 pm

tribi9 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:13 pm
Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:26 am

It's MAYBE possible but if it costs $1000 its gonna be made pretty poorly. Keep in mind what you're talking about needs two speakers, and two output transformers, plus tubes, control, etc. The Fender that you mention is also a completely different bird than what you've requested as it's just a two channel amp. What needs to be done to satisfy and true Vox and a true Fender circuit in one box is not a two channel amp its two WHOLE amps in one box. The only thing you can really share is a chassis and power transformer.

I'm perfectly capable of thinking far outside of the box but you may want to reread a lot of the information I already posted. There are many traits in a Vox circuit and a Fender circuit that simply cannot be shared in a single amp, as i've noted. These are the limitations that you're dealing with.
We appreciate your intelligent & informative contribution…
Definitely, good points.

Thanks
I appreciate his thoughts too… I just wonder if all great minds who build Amps would 100% agree. I think there may be those who wouldn’t….

Just the use of really good sounding 10” Neo Speakers would lighten the Amp at least the weight of the 2nd Transformer… I just think there is more thought that could go into it making it feasible & doable.. High quality light weight solid Wood for the cabinet rather than heavy glued together plywood making it lighter & also probably improve tone.. What else?

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by HarlowTheFish » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:29 pm

Larsongs wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:49 pm
I appreciate his thoughts too… I just wonder if all great minds who build Amps would 100% agree. I think there may be those who wouldn’t….

Just the use of really good sounding 10” Neo Speakers would lighten the Amp at least the weight of the 2nd Transformer… I just think there is more thought that could go into it making it feasible & doable.. High quality light weight solid Wood for the cabinet rather than heavy glued together plywood making it lighter & also probably improve tone.. What else?
Okay, hypothetically:

The lightest all-wood cabinet you could get away with is probably solid pine. Anything much lighter would IMO be structurally unsound without major internal support (which kills the weight savings) and IMO would probably sound kinda pants. You could do some very light ply (my DV Mark Neoclassic 2x12 is 7-ply poplar instead of the usual 9-ply birch, and with neo speakers, clocks in at 27lbs) or some hybrid wood-synthetic thing, like maybe 5-ply pine or poplar with carbon fiber (like w/cf/w/cf/w) and some light internal bracing if it needs a bit more stiffness -- you do need something sturdy for a combo that, in practical terms, is an all-tube JC120 kinda deal with two entirely separate pre- and power amps.

For speakers, if you're going with a 2x10 layout, I'm gonna say you probably want the 10" Jensen Tornado Classic 100, because that's pretty much the only proper guitar 10" speaker that's neo. Compared to the 10" Blackbird 100, you're saving some 3lbs per speaker (though you'd probably go for a lighter-built lower-wattage 10" realistically, this is as apples-to-apples as I can get for dubious science).

Going with neo speakers in this case, just the second power and output transformers you'd need to dial in a proper AC and Tweed Deluxe (which is my favorite Fender, so that's what I'm going with here) mean you're still not breaking even on weight. Add in tubes, a chassis, the pots and caps and chokes and whatever the hell else you need for what you described -- and I'm going very letter-of-the-law here, which is an actual AC, an actual Tweed Deluxe, but in one 2x10 combo and you can blend them together -- and even if you pull every trick in the book, you're still ending up with something in the range of a production AC15, in the high 40lbs range. You also need to deal with two effects loops (if you want them), because these are two independent amps: they don't share loops, and they each go to one speaker. Upside is you get a stereo rig in one box, downside is pretty much everything else, from cost (literally 2x just one amp because it's literally 2x one amp) to weight, to complexity.

You can sorta cheat though, by just going with two preamps (AC and Tweed Deluxe, in this case), and bouncing them down to mono with a blend -- this is the way those Frenzel amps work, except rather than a blend at the end, they have two input volumes. There's some issues here, sonically, because our Tweed and AC both have a decent part of their signature sound coming from the poweramp, and they're very different in design. There's a few different ways to work around this, from what Frenzel does -- just tune the preamps to get the tone you want out of each one -- to the more elaborate, like building teeny tiny power amps for the tone, but having a proper Class D one to actually amplify (similar to how BluGuitar's Amp1 line works, with the Korg nanotube in the poweramp for tone, but actually pushing air with a 100W SS Class D amp).

This is less bad, but especially if you go for the more true-to-original second option, you're adding a ton of complexity, with all the failure points that entails, and a lot of cost in parts, design work, and builder time.

My $0.02, realistically, is you have a bunch of options that will work, if you throw enough time and money at them (I don't agree with Dr. Tony's assessment that it's impossible, necessarily, but it's realistically difficult and expensive, and that statistically, for the price range you want, an unrealistic expectation); and two that exist and are good:

1) If you want a proper nice tube amp, call up the Frenzel guys and see if they can hook you up with a Fender/Vox kinda deal similar to their Deluxe 525. It'll be pricey, but certainly not outlandish for a tube amp, and it's handmade stateside by a tiny shop.

2) Get a Seymour Duncan Powerstage, a nice stereo compressor (or two mono ones), and a pair of Fender/Vox preamp pedals. Easy, can be way cheaper, and none of it is custom work, so if it doesn't work for you it's easy enough to return.

. . . thank you all for coming to my TED talk :)

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:18 pm

Thank you Harlow for your interesting thoughts.. I appreciate your time & thoughts..

I lug an AC15 or a 65 DRRI now… So I’m familiar with the weight.. 40ish lbs. is doable… Pine ok, Mono ok. (recording I can use 2 Mics in different locations for stereo) Everything seems ok..

Im going to take your suggestion & call Frenzel & see what they have to say…

Thanks again, much appreciated…

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:32 am

HarlowTheFish wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:29 pm
You can sorta cheat though, by just going with two preamps (AC and Tweed Deluxe, in this case), and bouncing them down to mono with a blend -- this is the way those Frenzel amps work, except rather than a blend at the end, they have two input volumes. There's some issues here, sonically, because our Tweed and AC both have a decent part of their signature sound coming from the poweramp, and they're very different in design.

I'm gonna give this a "yes, BUT.." response. You are correct that you can do two preamps blended to mono in your example. However, your example uses an AC-style and TWEED Deluxe. The original poster was talking about a Deluxe Reverb, which is an extremely different beast than a Tweed Deluxe. Its a very Apples to Oranges comparison but the distinction ties into something that i've said MANY times in this thread already, which I will restate here:

A fundamental difference, perhaps one of the biggest components to the sound, between a Fender Deluxe Reverb and a Vox AC15 or AC30 is NEGATIVE FEEDBACK. The Fender Deluxe Reverb depends on a large amount of negative feedback insertion at the phase inverter. The Vox amps use none (a Tweed Deluxe also uses none). One cannot have a two channel amp with a common power amp that does both lots of and also zero negative feedback into the phase inverter. It is a physical impossibility.

HarlowTheFish wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:29 pm
My $0.02, realistically, is you have a bunch of options that will work, if you throw enough time and money at them (I don't agree with Dr. Tony's assessment that it's impossible, necessarily, but it's realistically difficult and expensive, and that statistically, for the price range you want, an unrealistic expectation);
For clarification, I only said that doing this (at least doing it correctly) as a two channel amp with a common power section is an impossibility. The concept is FULLY possible with a dual power amp, it just will be not much different than having two amps. Similar things have been done before ... check out the Gibson GA79RVT.
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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:28 am

Tony & Harlow, You guys are great. I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge…

I probably could have said it better… My apologies..

My concept for Design;

I’d like a moderately light, 2 Speaker, (One for Vox sound, one for Fender sound), 15-22 Watt Combo Amp that has a Fender & Vox Sound.. That could be played in either Vox or Fender mode but has the ability to blend both Sounds. Would like it to have Reverb & Tremelo. No bigger than a Deluxe Reverb…

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