Downsizing amps

Make it loud here.
User avatar
JSett
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 8803
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: Old Hampshire, Old England

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by JSett » Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:05 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:00 am
JSett wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:44 am
As for the Vox I thought my AC15 (a 2009 one) sounded pretty damn close to my old AC30 (a Korg one) with a little knob-twiddling
That's *probably* an AC15CC1 which is more similar to a top-boost AC30 circuit, but not identical. Sound-wise it may do the trick just fine, i'm just talking specifics.
Yeah, it was a CC1 or CC2, I can't remember exactly. Sounded great and was a good size for home use (although still quite loud in my little house).
Last edited by JSett on Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?

User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:05 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:18 am

JSett wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:05 am
although still quiet loud
LOUD quiet loud?

Image
Instagram: thetonyballs

User avatar
JSett
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 8803
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: Old Hampshire, Old England

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by JSett » Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:43 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:18 am
JSett wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:05 am
although still quiet loud
LOUD quiet loud?
Quite

Damn you autocorrect!
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?

User avatar
fuzzjunkie
Expat
Expat
Posts: 7276
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:32 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by fuzzjunkie » Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:51 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:31 am
In any era that Dick Denney would be concerned, the AC15 is very different than the AC30. When you start getting into later reissues there may be other version that truly are half powered AC30, but not the originals by any stretch. AC15s in the 60s didnt have a non-EF86 normal channel and nothing was "top-boosted"... only the EF86 channel and the vibrato channel.
Ed: not calling Tony out. Just want to confirm the historical facts. I knew he was 90% right with his evaluation but I also knew that the AC30 had an EF86 preamp early on. I didn’t know the AC15 started out with an ECC83, I thought that changed after the AC30 switched over, but I did know that amp has had some different preamps like the AC30 and the current models do as well, or rather the 12AX7 named version of that tube.

I realize that the early AC15s didn’t have a Top Boost channel and that the AC30 didn’t either, but I thought they shared the same circuitry until the Top Boost was added to the AC30 in late 1963 after being an add-on option.

After looking at a couple of Vox history pages it looks like the AC15 originally had an ECC83 preamplifier before Denny changed it to an EF86 circuit in the single speaker TV version of the amplifier. Supposedly he included the Vib/Trem channel because the power amp was based off a JMI organ amplifier.

When the Shadows and other groups wanted more volume he introduced a Twin model with 2 speakers and eventually the AC30.

According to both articles I read, the original version of the AC30 was an EF86 preamp taken straight from the AC15 and he doubled the power amp and used the twin speaker configuration.

He rebuilt the preamp with ECC83 after issues with the EF86 caused by inefficient output and higher volumes. So for a short period the AC30 was a more powerful version of the AC15 but the preamp valves were prone to rattling, overheating and microphonic, so he was forced to change them.

Since Korg took over in 1993 the AC15 has had both a Normal and Top Boost channel with ECC83 preamps; so definitely not like the original version and more of a half powered AC30, except for a few limited edition models such as the ‘59 TV AC15 which has the EF86 preamp like the originals.

User avatar
marqueemoon
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 7343
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:21 pm

If you are looking for EF86 Winfield is worth a look.

I am often tempted by their Typhoon head which is basically an EF86 AC4.

User avatar
Funkybot
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:47 pm

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by Funkybot » Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:36 pm

I've got a Vox AC15C1X (the X just designates it's got the Celestion Blue). Lyle from Psionic recommends this model over the CC. Easier to mod and repair and built better from what I recall. Includes reverb, trem, and importantly, a good master volume. If I were looking to downsize (down volume) from a Korg-era AC-30 (which are great amps) that should be high on the list.

If anyone has a TONEX, I profiled my amp at various settings and posted those. Then volume is really a non-issue. Seriously, I love amps, but for home use, those profilers are killer.

User avatar
fuzzjunkie
Expat
Expat
Posts: 7276
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:32 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by fuzzjunkie » Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:47 pm

marqueemoon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:21 pm
If you are looking for EF86 Winfield is worth a look.

I am often tempted by their Typhoon head which is basically an EF86 AC4.
I did look into those last year because I thought I would like the EF86 based off the description of being dynamic, raw and chimey , but after hearing one (in a Dr Z) I think I prefer the ECC/AX preamp with Top Boost. The modern AC15 covers that. Maybe if I played a Winfield or Vox with an EF86 I would feel differently?

It’s similar to preferring the tone from a Princeton over a Deluxe. A lot of people love the Deluxe.

User avatar
marqueemoon
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 7343
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by marqueemoon » Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:54 pm

fuzzjunkie wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:47 pm
marqueemoon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:21 pm
If you are looking for EF86 Winfield is worth a look.

I am often tempted by their Typhoon head which is basically an EF86 AC4.
I did look into those last year because I thought I would like the EF86 based off the description of being dynamic, raw and chimey , but after hearing one (in a Dr Z) I think I prefer the ECC/AX preamp with Top Boost. The modern AC15 covers that. Maybe if I played a Winfield or Vox with an EF86 I would feel differently?

It’s similar to preferring the tone from a Princeton over a Deluxe. A lot of people love the Deluxe.
I am pretty indifferent myself. I have yet to hear an EF86 based thing that has absolutely sold me on it. A low watt handwired simple/inexpensive Vox I could crank up is the main appeal of the Typhoon for me.

For what the Cyclone costs there are other AC15 options worth considering I think.

Re: the Princeton vs. Deluxe thing the answer for me has been a Swart AST. It’s a more Gibson-derived design and is more mid-forward, but in terms of volume and headroom it sits perfectly in the middle. The perfect club amp IMO, and still sounds great at more moderate volumes.

User avatar
DeathJag
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2297
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:44 am

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by DeathJag » Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:46 pm

I apologize if this was already addressed (I kinda gloss over modeling talk), but why not just get a couple of good attenuators and keep the big tubies? I could not be happier with the two that I've got, use em with a Twin and Bassman for a wet/dry rig. And boy do I have snobby ears haha!

User avatar
fuzzjunkie
Expat
Expat
Posts: 7276
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:32 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by fuzzjunkie » Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:08 am

DeathJag wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:46 pm
I apologize if this was already addressed (I kinda gloss over modeling talk), but why not just get a couple of good attenuators and keep the big tubies? I could not be happier with the two that I've got, use em with a Twin and Bassman for a wet/dry rig. And boy do I have snobby ears haha!
No, it hasn’t, but I hadn’t really considered it. I’ve never used one myself, but friends using Hot Plates to cool down Matchless and Vox amps always complained about the result.

That was over a decade ago and maybe the tech has improved? What are you using?

User avatar
JSett
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 8803
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: Old Hampshire, Old England

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by JSett » Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:35 am

I don't know what Dan is using but I've always had great results from the Weber attenuators.
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?

User avatar
Surfysonic
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:22 pm
Location: Walkersville, MD
Contact:

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by Surfysonic » Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:23 am

I use a Weber Mass 200 (200w) Attenuator - it's awesome. :)

https://www.tedweber.com/mass-200/
The doofus formerly known as Snorre...

User avatar
DeathJag
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2297
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:44 am

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by DeathJag » Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:41 am

fuzzjunkie wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:08 am
That was over a decade ago and maybe the tech has improved? What are you using?
Yep, that's one of em - that Weber Mass 200. It's not very expensive either! The other one I use is the SPL Reducer, which is more expensive and sounds identical. The Weber has some reactive element that the SPL doesn't. The Reducer is a bit pricey. I actually prefer the Weber because I love its huge rheostat knob, and the bypass switch. Both sound totally transparent. It's pretty hard to get an accurate test because you either have to turn the amp down which changes its characteristics, or turn it up and barely use the attenuator. I do record though, and the recordings sound just like when the amps are turned up without an attenuator.
Last edited by DeathJag on Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Maggieo
Expat
Expat
Posts: 13446
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:36 am
Location: Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by Maggieo » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:06 am

I have a Swart Night Light, that I use on my Secret Agent. Oh, and my Milkman has a built-in one that is really, really, amazing.

If I had a big, loud amp that I loved, I think I'd get a UA Ox Box. AC30 into one of those? I've seen enough Y/T vids to know that sounds GREAT.
“Now I am quietly waiting for/ the catastrophe of my personality/ to seem beautiful again.”- Frank O'Hara
I am not an attorney and this post is for entertainment purposes only. Please consult a licensed attorney in your state for legal advice.

User avatar
marqueemoon
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 7343
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Downsizing amps

Post by marqueemoon » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:17 am

Maggieo wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:06 am
If I had a big, loud amp that I loved, I think I'd get a UA Ox Box. AC30 into one of those? I've seen enough Y/T vids to know that sounds GREAT.
I borrowed a friend’s OX for some overdubs. It was… ok.

I don’t think I would buy one based on that experience.

Post Reply