Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

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ek11sx
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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by ek11sx » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:56 am

buscon wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:40 am
Hi,

I am struggling with the same issue, I have a MIM Jazzmaster player that has a tremolo without the lock. Did you figure out how to set the screw correctly?
I have some tuning issue when I use the tremolo and my guess is that it has to do with the setting of the tremolo (of course other issues might play a role too).
I really have no idea if this is right but I took off the trem without the lock and set up the adjustment screw so that it is just a few mm deep into the nut on the bottom of the spring. I think I saw that on a picture of the tremolo somewhere and figured that was right.

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by buscon » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:01 am

ek11sx wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:56 am

I really have no idea if this is right but I took off the trem without the lock and set up the adjustment screw so that it is just a few mm deep into the nut on the bottom of the spring. I think I saw that on a picture of the tremolo somewhere and figured that was right.
thanks for your answer!
could you post a picture of the result? maybe would it be possible to guess it based on how much the tremolo hole is sticking out of the hole structure?

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by timtam » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:48 am

buscon wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:40 am
timtam wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:56 pm
...
Without the lock knob to guide you, you still want the trem screw adjusted to make the plate roughly horizontal. But short of dismounting the trem (or doing it before installation), how to check that is not entirely clear. Maybe mark the screw position for horizontal / neutral with a texta before installation ?
...
Hi,

I am struggling with the same issue, I have a MIM Jazzmaster player that has a tremolo without the lock. Did you figure out how to set the screw correctly?
I have some tuning issue when I use the tremolo and my guess is that it has to do with the setting of the tremolo (of course other issues might play a role too).
No more brighter ideas I'm afraid. As I alluded to, you can take the trem off, set the plate underneath to horizontal with the top trem screw, then mark a line across the top of the trem screw onto the top plate with a texta, so that the position can be re-set if the screw ever moves (as long as it hasn't gone through a full turn). Otherwise, and I haven't tried this as I avoid no-lock trems, but maybe over-tightening the trem screw to increase spring compression may improve its chances of being pushed hard back to where it started ? (and held strongly in place otherwise)
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by buscon » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:20 am

timtam wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:48 am


No more brighter ideas I'm afraid. As I alluded to, you can take the trem off, set the plate underneath to horizontal with the top trem screw, then mark a line across the top of the trem screw onto the top plate with a texta, so that the position can be re-set if the screw ever moves (as long as it hasn't gone through a full turn). Otherwise, and I haven't tried this as I avoid no-lock trems, but maybe over-tightening the trem screw to increase spring compression may improve its chances of being pushed hard back to where it started ? (and held strongly in place otherwise)
ok, thanks for your suggestion.
I have a defect tremolo that I can use as a reference for that, I don't feel like taking the tremolo off, I am concerned about making things worst :)

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by ek11sx » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:41 am

Just got my guitar back from the tech. He tossed the mastery trem back on, widened the nut slots and opened them up at the back. Says it’s mostly good, but the G string goes a little flat. He lubricated both the nut and the saddles. Not happy that I may have to do that from now on but I guess that’s what you get. I’ll test it out when I get home
Last edited by ek11sx on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by Danley » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:53 am

Glad it’s mostly working - what bridge did you wind up using,is it still the stock bridge with/without nylon inserts or the Mastery bridge? As I think was mentioned earlier in the thread, the stock bridge wouldn’t really benefit from lubrication.

If you need to lube the Mastery bridge, I’d be curious to see if using the stock bridge would give the same or better tuning stability without lubrication. If you’re lubricating the stock bridge, I don’t think you need to.
King Buzzo: I love when people come up to me and say “Your guitar sound was better on Stoner Witch, when you used a Les Paul. “...I used a Fender Mustang reissue on that, dumbass!

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by ek11sx » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:55 am

It has all Mastery parts on it now. I actually have a Staytrem coming in the mail in the next few days. Figured maybe that would do the trick but we will see how this all works out

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by ek11sx » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:28 am

Well, the nightmare continues.

So, now it appears the nut slots for the G and D string as too wide. They move around in the slots and ping when bending. Great. They had 10s on it so I figured let’s try 11s and see if that makes it better. Spoiler: NO.

So took the neck off after getting the 10s off and decided that now is a good time to put in a reverse shim as discussed previously. I went with the .25 degree shim to start. Got it shaped and slotted it in. Tightened up the neck and restrung. I was only able to lower the mastery bridge by one rotation of the Allen key on both sides, so it didn’t lower much. Pinging is still present. Also, the guitar still stays low when the bar is depressed and stays high when the bar is pulled. Probably a handful of cents each direction. I can level it off with an opposing trem bar movement.

Thinking I will bring it to a different guitar tech to get the nut completely replaced now. Still doesn’t provide the answer for the tuning issue.

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by timtam » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:33 am

ek11sx wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:41 am
Just got my guitar back from the tech. He tossed the mastery trem back on, widened the nut slots and opened them up at the back. Says it’s mostly good, but the G string goes a little flat. He lubricated both the nut and the saddles.
ek11sx wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:28 am
So, now it appears the nut slots for the G and D string as too wide. They move around in the slots and ping when bending. Great. They had 10s on it so I figured let’s try 11s and see if that makes it better. Spoiler: NO.

So took the neck off after getting the 10s off and decided that now is a good time to put in a reverse shim as discussed previously. I went with the .25 degree shim to start. Got it shaped and slotted it in. Tightened up the neck and restrung. I was only able to lower the mastery bridge by one rotation of the Allen key on both sides, so it didn’t lower much. Pinging is still present. Also, the guitar still stays low when the bar is depressed and stays high when the bar is pulled. Probably a handful of cents each direction. I can level it off with an opposing trem bar movement.
I had to remind myself why we had suggested the reverse shim - to reduce downforce on the Mastery so the strings don't grip the saddles and cause them to move/rock with trem use, as they had been doing. Also your bridge had looked high-ish.

The switch to 11's with their increased tension will have increased downforce again. So sticking with the 10s makes sense for now. Since your tech widened the nut slots, but they pinged with 11s, that would normally suggest that they weren't wide enough for the 11s, rather than too wide. Pinging is usually the string getting stuck in the slot and then releasing with a 'ping'. So that generally occurs with too-narrow slots. But maybe yours have an edge that the string is catching on ? A piece of fine sandpaper wrapped around a piece of cardboard can smooth the slots. But given the somewhat contrary pattern, don't ignore the possibility that the strings are actually pinging on the string tree(s) - they need to be smoothed / lubed sometimes too.

I assume you are stretching the strings when they are changed. That is necessary to get any slack out of the tuner wraps etc. When they stop going flat with stretching, you've got that slack out. Given your issues, I would also exert some pressure across all the bend points (nut etc), to bed the strings down there.

So I think your first strategy now should be ensuring the Mastery saddles don't move with trem use. Hopefully the strings are sliding with the lubed saddles and lower downforce, and the saddles are staying still. If they aren't, and since the bridge didn't lower much with the 0.25 deg shim, a bigger shim may be needed.
ek11sx wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:56 am
I really have no idea if this is right but I took off the trem without the lock and set up the adjustment screw so that it is just a few mm deep into the nut on the bottom of the spring. I think I saw that on a picture of the tremolo somewhere and figured that was right.
The trem plate underneath should be at least parallel to the top plate. What you describe above sounds like the spring is not under enough compression. That reduces resisting / restoring force from the spring, and may be playing into why you're not coming back to where you started after trem use.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by ek11sx » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:00 am

The pinging might be burr related. I took a couple passes with 800 then 1000 grit and it seems better. I can definitely see the string slide side to side in the nut and the snap back when releasing a bend was the source of the ping. I’ll switch to 10s and see what the stability is like

My little mod with the small nut on the spring of the mastery bridge seems to have locked them in place as far as I can tell

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by ek11sx » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:48 am

New question:

How can my string, particularly the low ones, go sharp and stay sharp after depressing the tremolo?

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by alexpigment » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:35 pm

ek11sx wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:48 am
New question:

How can my string, particularly the low ones, go sharp and stay sharp after depressing the tremolo?
One possibility: when you press down on the tremolo, the string is slacking behind the nut, then a burr or sharp edge is keeping it in that same spot behind the nut when you release the tremolo. The easiest test for this is pushing the string in question down behind the nut (just press it down somewhat firmly and then let it go). If the string stays sharp after that, it's binding at the nut. I really do feel like a broken record, but this is an easy test and every time I suggest it, no one ever reports back. Maybe I'm explaining it wrong or something.

The other possibility is that pressing down on the tremolo is allowing the bridge or saddle to return to its natural position, which is further back than it was.

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by ek11sx » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:29 pm

alexpigment wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:35 pm
ek11sx wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:48 am
New question:

How can my string, particularly the low ones, go sharp and stay sharp after depressing the tremolo?
One possibility: when you press down on the tremolo, the string is slacking behind the nut, then a burr or sharp edge is keeping it in that same spot behind the nut when you release the tremolo. The easiest test for this is pushing the string in question down behind the nut (just press it down somewhat firmly and then let it go). If the string stays sharp after that, it's binding at the nut. I really do feel like a broken record, but this is an easy test and every time I suggest it, no one ever reports back. Maybe I'm explaining it wrong or something.

The other possibility is that pressing down on the tremolo is allowing the bridge or saddle to return to its natural position, which is further back than it was.
Not home now dude but when I get home tomorrow I’ll do it and report back. I’ve done it before but I have not recorded the results. Tomorrow, I’ll get back to you

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by alexpigment » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:40 pm

ek11sx wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:29 pm
Not home now dude but when I get home tomorrow I’ll do it and report back. I’ve done it before but I have not recorded the results. Tomorrow, I’ll get back to you
No worries. That was really a mini-vent and not pointed at you directly. Anyway, it should confirm whether the nut is the problem or not.

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Re: Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

Post by ek11sx » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:18 pm

No prob, I have done it as a gauge, never mentioned the results. It’s a good idea. Tomorrow when I’m not eating burgers and killing pumpkin beer I’ll get back
Last edited by ek11sx on Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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