Amp upgrade: Need some wisdom!

[NateD81]

A DRRI should make you very happy indeed.

The 12F150 is a fine speaker. You should be quite pleased!

Although I and many others recommended the PRRI, the DRRI is not worse-- just different.

PRRI has the 10" speaker (if you're like me and like that sort of thing), will get loose at a lower volume, and the nice bias-vary tremolo.

DRRI has a bit more headroom, a 12" speaker (if you're into that sort of thing), the long-tailed pair phase inverter (which I like a bit more than the PRRI's cathodyne, most times), but has an optical tremolo (which I don't like quite as much.)

All in all, it's horses for courses really. You'll be quite happy and have made a fine choice!

Thank you - I’m definitely excited! One question for you re: the speaker: it’s rated at 50watts, does that mean the amp will be slightly quieter? As I’ve demonstrated throughout this post, I’m an idiot with this stuff so I’m really enjoying the education! Not sure how speaker wattage relates to amp wattage.

I was honestly really torn between the DRRI and the PRRI - my gut just went with the DRRI, and I figure that if it’s absolutely the wrong thing for me / too loud, I can always sell it and get a PRRI. Someone mentioned, I think it might have been you actually, that I might consider long term value regarding resale so it just seemed like it was be a good move either way. I didn’t want to be stuck with an amp that if I wanted to sell it for something else, I’d have to take a massive hit. I paid 825 for it and it’s in mint condition so that seemed like a fair price for a FSR judging by what I’ve seen on Reverb.

Thanks again for your feedback, I truly appreciate it.

[NateD81]

Thank you - I’m definitely excited! One question for you re: the speaker: it’s rated at 50watts, does that mean the amp will be slightly quieter? As I’ve demonstrated throughout this post, I’m an idiot with this stuff so I’m really enjoying the education! Not sure how speaker wattage relates to amp wattage.

The speaker's wattage rating is a maximum. In truth, it's really only a rating of how much heat buildup the voice coil can take before it fails!

If we want to dig deeper, there are a few things we can break down here. First of all-- a 50w speaker is exactly what you want in that amp. I wouldn't go any lower than that.

The general rule of thumb is that your set of speakers should be able to handle double the amp's rated power output of 22-ish watts... so at least 44 watts (I'll explain why in a sec). If the amp had two speakers, each could be 25 watts, since they'd be sharing the load. But since there's only one, 50 is near-perfect.

Now to tell the truth, you could put a 100 watt speaker in there if you wanted. It would be very heavy and needless overkill (and the speaker itself wouldn't ever contribute any distortion of its own, which some people like).

---

So returning to an earlier point-- why do we need to be able to handle 2x the amp's rated output?

To answer this, we need to understand what that "22 watts" is measuring. There's no completely-universal standard, but most such ratings are taken assuming a given (usually very low) amount of harmonic distortion (usually 1% THD, which stands for 'total harmonic distortion').

In a tube guitar amp like the DRRI, the 1% THD point will not sound 'distorted.' You'll barely perceive 1% THD in a guitar amp. Before audible hard clipping takes place, a soft squeeze will happen where the amp just begins to fatten and compress a little. By the time you hear this, you're well above 1% THD. When you're hearing audible clipping, you're many times higher than that in terms of distortion products.

...meanwhile, the amp just keeps getting louder as you turn the knob up, well across that 1% THD threshold.

In short, when the manufacturer advertises "22 watts," they are advertising "22 watts clean". The power output under typical playing circumstances can and will often be considerably higher.

--

As far as the speaker influencing how loudly or quietly the amp plays... this can also happen, but the power rating of the speaker will not measure or indicate that. To gather that information, you need an efficiency or sensitivity rating, which is measured in dB.

This measurement is taken by sending exactly 1w of white noise out of the speaker, which is placed in front of a calibrated measurement microphone at exactly 1m distance. The sound pressure level is measured at that point.

An Eminence Swamp Thing is 102 dB spl with 1w white noise @ 1m distance. This is extremely efficient/sensitive (about the highest you'll get for a 12" guitar amp speaker). Your 12F150 is about average: 99dB spl under the same circumstances, meaning it's about 3dB quieter than the loudest available option.

3dB isn't nothing. In fact, it's a considerable difference in sound pressure (if we measured in Pascals, which is a linear scale, as opposed to deciBels, which is a logarithmic scale, the number would look more impressive). 6dB represents a doubling or halving of sound pressure, if that gives an idea (a 50w amp will be 6dB louder than a 25w amp, all else held equal).

This is a matter of personal preference only. If someone had a DRRI and was like "it's perfect, I just wish it were a TOUCH louder when I played with my band," I'd recommend the Swamp Thing. If they said "I only play it at home, and wish I could get overdrive at a slightly lower volume," I'd recommend the least-sensitive speaker they could find (I don't know what that is offhand, but I'd look for a 97dB speaker or 'worse' if I could find it).

Hope that helps!!

My day job is that I'm an English teacher, so I definitely understood the words you wrote, although some of the math was lost on me! Seriously though, this did make a decent amount of sense and clears up quite a few misunderstandings I've had.

My plan is to get to know the amp for sometime before I even think about swapping speakers and tubes. Really interested to A/B the amp against my SCX2 with the Ragin' Cajun. Looks like the Ragin' Cajun is 100.5 dB which looks pretty similar to the Weber. Anyway - I definitely know a little more than I did yesterday, so this info is great!

[øøøøøøø]

I think your instinct is right-- play the amp and enjoy it as-is for now. Don't get sucked down the 'speakers and tubes' rabbit hole.

In truth, I think the 12F150 is a very, very good choice for that amp. The stock Jensen C12K (which is, incidentally, a 100w speaker!) is also very good in that amp. Many other things could be cool, too... but the 12F150 is very much modeled after the old 60s Jensen C12N that was used in the original Deluxe Reverbs, and is a very credible re-creation.

It's a great match for the DRRI. If it were my amp, I would leave it in and look no further, unless there was something about it that made me unhappy. Simply put-- a 12F150 is a very 'right' speaker for that amp.

Tubes? Yeah, you could have some fun there, eventually. Or you could just get a set of NOS RCA 6V6GT and a NOS blackplate RCA 12AX7 for V2 and be done and never think about it again. But honestly... for now, just enjoy the amp and learn what it has to offer you in its current configuration.

[Larsongs]

Don't worry about a DRRI not being loud! But, right now, I wouldn't pay more than $825 for a brand new one, delivered. No Tx, free shipping, full Warranty & 45 day no hassle Return...

Lars

[NateD81]

Don't worry about a DRRI not being loud! But, right now, I wouldn't pay more than $825 for a brand new one, delivered. No Tx, free shipping, full Warranty & 45 day no hassle Return...

Lars

Hey Lars -- yeah I'm not really worried about the DRRI not being loud - more so the opposite; I'm don't want it to be TOO loud! I'm honestly not that worried. I feel good about the price I got mine at - at the end of the day I just want a sweet sounding amp that will be fun to play through. I'm not worried if I overpay 25-50 bucks - but hopefully I don't!

[Larsongs]

Don't worry about a DRRI not being loud! But, right now, I wouldn't pay more than $825 for a brand new one, delivered. No Tx, free shipping, full Warranty & 45 day no hassle Return...

Lars

Hey Lars -- yeah I'm not really worried about the DRRI not being loud - more so the opposite; I'm don't want it to be TOO loud! I'm honestly not that worried. I feel good about the price I got mine at - at the end of the day I just want a sweet sounding amp that will be fun to play through. I'm not worried if I overpay 25-50 bucks - but hopefully I don't!

At the end of the day that's all that matters. I just try to offer assistance finding the best Gear at the best price if I can.... Enjoy..

[NateD81]

Don't worry about a DRRI not being loud! But, right now, I wouldn't pay more than $825 for a brand new one, delivered. No Tx, free shipping, full Warranty & 45 day no hassle Return...

Lars

Hey Lars -- yeah I'm not really worried about the DRRI not being loud - more so the opposite; I'm don't want it to be TOO loud! I'm honestly not that worried. I feel good about the price I got mine at - at the end of the day I just want a sweet sounding amp that will be fun to play through. I'm not worried if I overpay 25-50 bucks - but hopefully I don't!

At the end of the day that's all that matters. I just try to offer assistance finding the best Gear at the best price if I can.... Enjoy..

Totally get it - thank you! I paid 825 but it is the FSR (not that really makes much of a difference), near mint with an upgraded speaker and new JJ tubes, but I know mileage may vary when buying something that isn’t stock. A

[Trout]

How about a 1967 Bluesbreaker?

13200 $

https://www.blocket.se/vi/82661447.htm

[NateD81]

How about a 1967 Bluesbreaker?

13200 $

https://www.blocket.se/vi/82661447.htm

I hope the shipping to California is reasonable!

[Trout]

If you can afford the amp, you can afford shipping it

[NateD81]

If you can afford the amp, you can afford shipping it

Haha fair enough! It’s like when you see something for sale without a price tag-if you have to ask how much, you can’t afford it.

[NateD81]

I think your instinct is right-- play the amp and enjoy it as-is for now. Don't get sucked down the 'speakers and tubes' rabbit hole.

In truth, I think the 12F150 is a very, very good choice for that amp. The stock Jensen C12K (which is, incidentally, a 100w speaker!) is also very good in that amp. Many other things could be cool, too... but the 12F150 is very much modeled after the old 60s Jensen C12N that was used in the original Deluxe Reverbs, and is a very credible re-creation.

It's a great match for the DRRI. If it were my amp, I would leave it in and look no further, unless there was something about it that made me unhappy. Simply put-- a 12F150 is a very 'right' speaker for that amp.

Tubes? Yeah, you could have some fun there, eventually. Or you could just get a set of NOS RCA 6V6GT and a NOS blackplate RCA 12AX7 for V2 and be done and never think about it again. But honestly... for now, just enjoy the amp and learn what it has to offer you in its current configuration.

Just an update to resurrect this post.

Got my hands on the DRRI today - I was really impressed how my JM sounded through it, definitely surpassed my expectations. A lot of my questions centered on whether or not the amp would be too loud in comparison to my SCX2 with a Ragin Cajun, and at least for my purposes, volume was not an issue whatsoever. Obviously, an amp being too loud is subjective but it’s going to suit me just fine and the clean sound was amazing. I really loved my X2, but it just doesn’t compare to the DRRI.

Thanks to everyone for answering my million questions!

[øøøøøøø]

Good to hear! I felt certain you'd be happy

[Jaguar018]

I think your instinct is right-- play the amp and enjoy it as-is for now. Don't get sucked down the 'speakers and tubes' rabbit hole. / Good to hear! I felt certain you'd be happy

Totally agree with this! In this day and age there isn't much that a stock DRRI can't do very capably for most players.

Enjoy your new amp NateD81!

[NateD81]

I think your instinct is right-- play the amp and enjoy it as-is for now. Don't get sucked down the 'speakers and tubes' rabbit hole. / Good to hear! I felt certain you'd be happy

Totally agree with this! In this day and age there isn't much that a stock DRRI can't do very capably for most players.

Enjoy your new amp NateD81!

Thank you! Yeah, I think before I got the amp in my hands, I read about a million speaker opinions, tube opinions -- which was really fun -- but when I plug my guitar in I loved the sound immediately. I was so used to my X2, playing the DRRI makes my X2 pale in comparison and I don't think it's a bad amp at all...just not a DRRI.

Anyway, the amp is just what I hoped for, beautiful clean sound with tons of headroom. Now I just need to improve my guitar playing...SO easy