Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
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UlricvonCatalyst
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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by UlricvonCatalyst » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:16 am

P.S. I, and a whole generation of my contemporaries, spent a substantial chunk of my youth and young manhood listening to a Walkman as often as not, and I (we?) barely noticed the alleged massive sonic compromise. It all comes down to how good the song is in the end.

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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:22 am

Actually, Brad, I do enjoy listening to vinyl. Not as much now as I used to, but I used to enjoy listening to 78's on the machines of the day, usually portable record players but sometimes larger home units. I like listening to the music of the day on the technology of the day. It's like, living history.

But I am only talking about recording here, not listening. I haven't really touched on listening of music at all.

You mention, regarding CD quality,

"It's better in exactly one way--lower theoretical noise floor. It's also worse in exactly one way--data size/storage.

Whether a dithered 16 bit file's 120-ish dB of dynamic range is substantially worse than a 24 bit file's theoretical 144dB would be debatable... but the elephant in the room is that 24 bit converters almost always top out at about 20 bit performance "in the real world" due to practical concerns like thermal noise. 20 bit performance gets you... 120 dB of dynamic range.

So 24 bit as a delivery medium offers only tenuous advantages over well-dithered 16 bit, and takes up a LOT more disk space. "


Again, I just don't see how lower noise floor is not a thing that one should strive for. The people that recorded all those 78s that I used to certainly thought so, they worked tirelessly to make audio recording more realistic in various ways and to lower the noise floor at every level.

You can always add noise, for artistic effect, if you want it. You can never take it away (without making other negative changes).

I am completely unconcerned with disk space. This isn't 2006. Cloud storage, disk space, what expense is that? Compared to every other factor that goes into making a good recording, we are talking about disk space?

I know you do a lot of professional recording and I haven't in years, so I'm asking, is disk space a subject that engineers bring up with you?

"Hey, Brad, great playing. We're gonna have to go 8 bit on this one, though... disk space, man. Sorry."

Your point about dynamic range is taken, but the threshold of pain is like 130dB, so that 144dB dynamic range that 24 bit offers is overkill anyway (which I know goes contrary to some of my absolutist statements).

Also, you write (sorry, you made a lot of points):

What almost everyone seems to misunderstand--and it's understandable why-- is that this is literally the exact same question as asking "what happens to the audio that's above 22.05kHz?"

Well, right. But if you record at 48k, then 22.06kHz is not truncated or folded back, right? If you record at 96k, it's also not truncated, either- you get a lot more headroom. So since disk space isn't an issue to me, I see no reason not to record at higher sampling rates, and to get the anti aliasing filter out of the way as much as possible.

Here's a little article I was consulting regarding my reply here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming to have golden ears here. I'm also quite willing to accept that if you sat me down and played me 16 and 24 bit recordings I would guess about as well as I would flips of a coin. Still, if the technology and the knowledge are there, I see little reason not to make the best possible capture of audio that you can.

You can make any changes you want later. You talk about a pixelated image, and that's a good concept... you might use a very small picture for whatever reason. Still, you never know, so why not capture the best and most beautiful image you can while you are taking the picture?
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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:52 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:36 am

Completely right-- I don't give a fuck about disk space when recording, either. But for delivery, I sometimes do-- like, when talking about a library of thousands of songs on my phone (so I can listen on the plane offline), it's a different story. There's a different set of priorities between recording (where I see 16 bit as woefully inadequate) and final delivery (where I see it as perfectly adequate).
You make a good point there, I would love to see the end of the Mp3, which I also don't like, but I have to admit, when I record a piece of music, and want to send it to someone?

There is still a disconnect between the medium and the delivery and the format. The CD sucked, but it was better than the Mp3, but the Mp3 will live on past the CD to a degree. The cassette sucked more than the LP, but you could play it in your car.

Also, you mention that a really good 48k converter is better than a poor 96k one, that might seem obvious but it's something I have to remind myself of sometimes, I can get wrapped up in specs and numbers (you may have noticed).

Really, the best thing you can do is have experience with your machine and setup. No matter what technology you hand me, at any cost, I still won't make as good a recording as a real professional who knows his room, his mics, his board and so on.

But to answer why I'm talking about digital, I have been recommending that the OP skip the whole cassette thing entirely, and I've made the point that he already has much better tools and if he wants what analog has to offer there are much better ways to get it than cassette.

I don't know how to discuss that without comparing it to what the better tools are, though, and why they are better.
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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by DeathJag » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:04 pm

Awesome discourse!! All television and movie dialog is BUTCHERED during the final mixing stage. They throw away everything below 800Hz and above 3kHz.

And yet we use Schoeps mics and jensen preamps to record it.

It is my opinion that unless you’re recording a flea orgy, you don’t need to record above 15kHz, but I will!

I have a Portastudio 464 and it was AWESOME. Metal tapes sounded fucking incredible! Plus mine had three speeds, and “high speed” sounded a lot better.

I also have a Tascam 38 and I used it with 4x DBX 160A units, and it sang. Man, those recordings were pretty.

But I’ve since graduated to a Presonus Studiolive 16, and life is much better. Maybe someday I’ll drag out the Tascam 38 for mastering or something, but for now, 16 tracks digital!

I should add that I’m recording ultra-trashy, mid-fi, reverb-drenched surf. So that craptastic Portastudio would be great, but I’m loving the 16 tracks...

Image
Last edited by DeathJag on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by DeathJag » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:07 pm

Oops

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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by tdbajus » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:14 pm

God, I love this thread.

Brad, thanks for all the knowledge bombs. Larry, I can see what you are saying, but I think Brad paraphrased the questions in a way that made them answer a lot more than what you specifically mentioned, which I appreciated. I didn't feel like you were being straw-manned at any point.

Glad I tuned in today- been worth it. Thanks guys.

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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by DeathJag » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:31 pm

Ooooops

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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by marqueemoon » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:17 pm

I do like 4 track cassette for the process, and some of the sonic characteristics but I wouldn’t pay a “vintage” price for one at this point.

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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by shadowplay » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:58 am

UlricvonCatalyst wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:16 am
P.S. I, and a whole generation of my contemporaries, spent a substantial chunk of my youth and young manhood listening to a Walkman as often as not, and I (we?) barely noticed the alleged massive sonic compromise. It all comes down to how good the song is in the end.
I agree and I'd also say I've spent a fair bit of my life buying records recorded on shite equipment in kitchens, and tape only releases and I'll happily listen to a flexidisc. I just bought a great wee elpee byCouteau Latex , that was recorded on a 4-track and I think it suits it and gives it that fanzine cover sheen. Obviously grey and numb sounding with hiss to spare when piped through the big speakas but that was the original style and it suits it and IMO sometimes getting an 'adult' in can push some music in the wrong direction.

D
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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by shadowplay » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:30 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:02 am
...and that's basically the crux. We need to understand what's driving our OP.

If they've learned of four-track cassette and are fascinated by it--whether by the process, or the lo-fi character, or even the look--then I'd encourage them to take that inspiration and run with it.

Make whatever you can make. Let it be unapologetically "four-track cassette." It's a medium for art, just like watercolor or photography or collage, and if it's the medium that interests you and encourages you to make cool shit, go for it. But understand the medium.

Conversely, if they heard a beautiful-sounding recording made on professional analog equipment and, upon learning that it was "analog," thought "I want to make recordings that sound like this," then I might encourage them to go a different direction. They'd get closer to their ideal with a modern digital rig than they would with a cassette four track.

To me, it's exactly like: If someone has grown up with only iPhone cameras, and then they see a beautiful Cornell Capa print, and they think "I want to get a film camera, like a Polaroid!" It would be fair to advise them that they might, in fact, be looking for something else--and may even be happier with a modest but nicer-than-average digital DSLR camera. It doesn't mean Polaroid isn't a totally valid medium. I've seen really cool shit done with a Polaroid. But it's different.
Dead on. You're on a hiding to nothing if you think you can get a big sheeny separated sound but sometimes it just suits the song and if it suits your music then great. One of the reasons it suits grey raincoated minimal wave is because that's how a lot of the early stuff was recorded so it sounds right.

I think it's fine if it's natural but I don't like when people are trying to punch their fancy gear down to sounding lofi or running it through some pre shredded denim device.

A countryish good example with guitars since lofi minimal wave is probably a little niche is the Paula Frazer (Tarnation) four track demos where the warble and hiss sort of envelop everything in a dank and meloncholy mist and IMO these songs sometimes work better than the later studio versions of some of the songs, at least to my taste.

Paula Frazer - We met By the love lies Bleeding (4 Track)

Paula Frazer - We Met by the Love Lies Bleeding (big girl studio version)

Also who needs the luxury of a portastudio, Thomas Leer recorded this with 'two cassette machines & a few effects pedals Guitar, Bass & Wasp Synthesizer.' i mean it sounds 'terrible' but great if you know what I mean.

D

*an amazing musician who grew up not far from me in a very unfashionable town and alone and with Robert Rental made some amazing music and a couple of the truly great post punk singles in;

Thomas Leer - Private Plane

Robert Rental - Double Heart

Leer got a lot more accomplished later on but his early work is amazing to me and a near lifelong love
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Re: Anyone have recs on a cassette 4 track?

Post by dezb1 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:00 pm

shadowplay wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:30 am
øøøøøøø wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:02 am
...and that's basically the crux. We need to understand what's driving our OP.

If they've learned of four-track cassette and are fascinated by it--whether by the process, or the lo-fi character, or even the look--then I'd encourage them to take that inspiration and run with it.

Make whatever you can make. Let it be unapologetically "four-track cassette." It's a medium for art, just like watercolor or photography or collage, and if it's the medium that interests you and encourages you to make cool shit, go for it. But understand the medium.

Conversely, if they heard a beautiful-sounding recording made on professional analog equipment and, upon learning that it was "analog," thought "I want to make recordings that sound like this," then I might encourage them to go a different direction. They'd get closer to their ideal with a modern digital rig than they would with a cassette four track.

To me, it's exactly like: If someone has grown up with only iPhone cameras, and then they see a beautiful Cornell Capa print, and they think "I want to get a film camera, like a Polaroid!" It would be fair to advise them that they might, in fact, be looking for something else--and may even be happier with a modest but nicer-than-average digital DSLR camera. It doesn't mean Polaroid isn't a totally valid medium. I've seen really cool shit done with a Polaroid. But it's different.
Dead on. You're on a hiding to nothing if you think you can get a big sheeny separated sound but sometimes it just suits the song and if it suits your music then great. One of the reasons it suits grey raincoated minimal wave is because that's how a lot of the early stuff was recorded so it sounds right.

I think it's fine if it's natural but I don't like when people are trying to punch their fancy gear down to sounding lofi or running it through some pre shredded denim device.

A countryish good example with guitars since lofi minimal wave is probably a little niche is the Paula Frazer (Tarnation) four track demos where the warble and hiss sort of envelop everything in a dank and meloncholy mist and IMO these songs sometimes work better than the later studio versions of some of the songs, at least to my taste.

Paula Frazer - We met By the love lies Bleeding (4 Track)

Paula Frazer - We Met by the Love Lies Bleeding (big girl studio version)

Also who needs the luxury of a portastudio, Thomas Leer recorded this with 'two cassette machines & a few effects pedals Guitar, Bass & Wasp Synthesizer.' i mean it sounds 'terrible' but great if you know what I mean.

D

*an amazing musician who grew up not far from me in a very unfashionable town and alone and with Robert Rental made some amazing music and a couple of the truly great post punk singles in;

Thomas Leer - Private Plane

Robert Rental - Double Heart

Leer got a lot more accomplished later on but his early work is amazing to me and a near lifelong love

There was an exhibition on both of those guys on last month, meant to go see it but missed out.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... d-45808356

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