It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by Grey » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:37 pm

People used to dump on Ovation but I always thought they made some pretty comfortable acoustics.

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:45 pm

Yeah, but that sound... shit. I ain't Melissa Etheridge over here.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by mackerelmint » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:58 pm

Yeah, Ovations sound like shit. Piezo pickups sound like shit.

It's not easy getting around the physical requirements to make an acoustic sound good. As for smaller bodies, I'd say that it's great for nylon stringed guitars, since they have their own sound. But for steel strings it often sounds anemic. Dreadnoughts I can't stand either, not just because they're big and uncomfortable, but because they don't sound good to me. They sound exaggerated to me, somehow.

A friend of mine came into a real nice Martin acoustic, it was totally low-end, mid sized nothing special about it, and it was the nicest steel string I've ever played. It had this really natural sound and the action was like no acoustic I've ever played, not even other Martins. It was so low and easy, it was like an electric as long as you weren't bending strings. He didn't even know how to play it. I coveted that damn thing. I've played a couple of fairly comfortable (to my fingers) Taylors as well. Still, I'll probably stick to my trusty Aria classical.
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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:38 pm

wooderson wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:26 am
Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:31 am
Sorry for the deviation, but who is this?
I think it's Leighton Meester.
Thanks dude!
mackerelmint wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:20 am
Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:31 am

Sorry for the deviation, but who is this?
Leighton Meester, in her role as Blair Waldorf. I have an encyclopedic collection of reaction GIFs and JPGs featuring her, because Blair is a grade A snarky, bon mot tossing smartass, and because she's expressive as hell. And well dressed.
Much appreciated! I usually take note of cute women in GIF format :D
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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by s_mcsleazy » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:34 am

see gibson, we have all the answers right here.
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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by StevenO » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:40 am

Well Gibson probably can't get any worse, so I welcome the new Levi's overlord.

I mean, it's not like I buy new guitars anyhow.

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by Despot » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:30 pm

sookwinder wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:15 pm
The J45 "vintage " noticeably lighter than the 64 J50 I have… which in itself is interesting, there is a similarity with the sound between the vintage sounds of my J50 and the new 2017 J45 "vintage ". But there is also a difference… the bass notes are more rounded on the vintage J50. For me they were like cousins rather than sister instruments … but I would in a minute say yes to one… truly a superb (new) acoustic guitar. Well made, well finished, materials appear of high quality (wood, plastics, hardware), a guitar to hang one's hat on, so to speak.

Now the downside ... here in Oz the 2017 J45 "vintage "cost a tad over AU$5k ... RRP in the USA is US$4K
This has been my problem with Gibson for a while David - the narrowing gap between vintage and new.

Also - I agree on the true vintage spec J45s - I had one of those and loved it. Not the same as an old one, but maybe the same as the old one when it left the factory... who knows.

Trigger warning: For those who get upset about mentioning prices paid, please note that this goes to the core of the argument. Okay? Okay.

That J45 was second hand - but cost 2,750 euro (it was basically brand new). I replaced it with my '50 J45 ... which cost over 4k - so that's a big old jump off right? But while the '50 is 'the' acoustic for me (I don't even try acoustics anymore), it's only marginally better than the '57 J50 that I had ages ago (and sold for some silly reason). That '57 cost me 3,500 euro. That's not that much more than a used True Vintage J45 ... and if it had been new I think the TV J45 might actually have cost more than the vintage!

Another example - reissue ES guitars. I recently bought a 2015 ES345 '64 reissue - it was so good that I was able to sell the vintage one that I've been hoarding. It also cost only marginally more than a 'standard' ES335 according to the 2018 price lists - it was just under 3k euro. That same guitar, in it's 2018 guise, costs 4,300 euro on Thomann (or ... well, the closest vintage spec ES335 does). Basically the same guitar.

A 1967 ES355 was recently listed on Reverb for just over 5k euro in the UK. That's without import tax and close enough that I could have taken a ferry over to get it. It was up there for months ... and I still regret not selling something to get the money to buy it. It was straight too ... no issues.

If the difference between a no-issues vintage ES355 and a reissue ES345 is 700 euro ... then there's something wrong with Gibson's price point on these guitars.

Here's the thing (and I've said this before, so apologies) ... those historic reissue guitars tend towards fantastic, but are always great at a minimum. Mine was a little bit stiff for a while when I got it ... but it had been sitting up for three years after production and hadn't been played - as mad as it sounds it's a far more lively instrument now after only 6/7 months of getting played every other day. But it was a great guitar from day one. The main thing going for it over a standard ES335? The pickups. Hands down. 57 Classics (that tend to come stock in the standard ES guitars, and even a lot of the custom shop ones) are not suited to ES guitars. The MHS pickups sound far better - clearer, brighter and just ... well ... better. I hadn't bought a new Gibson in years - I think the last one was in around 2006 when I bought that Firebird. I've consistently bought second hand Gibsons - even the ES345 that I bought this year was discounted because it had been on Thomann for so long. The reason is simple - price. If an ES335 Standard came with MHS pickups I'd have looked around and bought a nice new one years ago - especially when the street price of an ES335 was around 2k.

And that's just ES guitars - the case becomes even more compelling when you look at stuff like SGs. A Custom Shop SG is now around 3k (the last time I checked). I bought my '69 SG for a not a lot more than that earlier this year. The CS SGs tend to come with stop tails these days - I prefer vibrolas, big guards and t-tops ... so it's was a no brainer for me.

The problem with price point is that with these ultra high end reissues Gibson are competing with vintage - and for folk who are thinking about buying a 4k new ES guitar you've got to start thinking "maybe I should save up for a while longer and get an old one".

Gibson need to figure out what they're trying to do. My recommendation would be to make better guitars - by that I mean to try to make the standard of guitars that they're making in those historic reissues as 'standard' models. If I picked up a standard ES guitar and it played and sounded like my reissue ... I'd be impressed. If the price point made sense I'd even buy one. There is, at least as I can see, no difference in construction between the standard ES and reissue - I know you have slightly different body shapes (the horns) ... but I don't care about that. I can't see how the reissue ES is by degrees more difficult or complex to make - the key difference is the pickups and a little bit more attention to fret work and set up.

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by Despot » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:32 pm

StevenO wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:40 am
Well Gibson probably can't get any worse, so I welcome the new Levi's overlord.

I mean, it's not like I buy new guitars anyhow.
I'm curious Steven - why is that?
Genuine question by the way ... is it that they're overpriced for what they are, that you've other necessary outlets for 'guitar money' or you're looking for better value in vintage stuff?

In my case it's a mix of all three - but the overwhelming thing for me right now is the need to save like crazy to buy our own place.

I suspect a lot of us here are in the same boat though - we either buy value vintage where we find it, or we don't buy.

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by StevenO » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:03 am

Basically all of those reasons.

I also don't feel like I am the target market for most of Gibson's new lines. The only Gibsons I tend to like are close to $5 grand, and for me that's in actual vintage Gibson range, and at least the vintage will go up in value over time. With a mortgage and a stable of already really great sounding and playing guitars, I just don't see myself affording anything high-end from Gibson. Of course, I don't hold that against them, it just doesn't seem particularly sustainable...

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by Despot » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:30 am

I think we're in the same boat.

I have only kept one new guitar in the whole guitar trading/selling shenanigans that I've been going through recently - and it's that ES345. Given that I'll be holding on to it I won't have to worry about depreciation - but that's always been a consideration when I considered buying new Gibsons over the years - and when I have bought nearly new Gibsons it's usually been stuff that I knew would hold value (stuff like the reissue '59 ES330, or the Rusty Anderson ES335).

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by s_mcsleazy » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:14 pm

so should we take bets on what direction gibson is going to go?

i say 2:1 that they stick with the dad-rock guitars.
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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by Squirrel » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:15 am

I'm going to say more of the same. At least that's the best I can hope for. As long as they don't close the Memphis factory I guess I'm fine with that.

Actually there's probably going to be a sudden influx of overpriced Beatles replica guitars which will be bought exclusively by pedantic Rickresource grandads who will immediately return them due to finish flaws.

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by rumfoord » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:51 am

mackerelmint wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:58 pm
It's not easy getting around the physical requirements to make an acoustic sound good. As for smaller bodies, I'd say that it's great for nylon stringed guitars, since they have their own sound. But for steel strings it often sounds anemic. Dreadnoughts I can't stand either, not just because they're big and uncomfortable, but because they don't sound good to me. They sound exaggerated to me, somehow.

A friend of mine came into a real nice Martin acoustic, it was totally low-end, mid sized nothing special about it, and it was the nicest steel string I've ever played. It had this really natural sound and the action was like no acoustic I've ever played, not even other Martins. It was so low and easy, it was like an electric as long as you weren't bending strings. He didn't even know how to play it. I coveted that damn thing. I've played a couple of fairly comfortable (to my fingers) Taylors as well. Still, I'll probably stick to my trusty Aria classical.
I love Martins. Basically my favorite acoustic sound is a nice but not too nice Martin (in about the $1000 range). One thing I will never understand about acoustics is what and why they sound good. I've played a 000 sized guitar that sounded great and crisp and rich, but most do sound thin. For some reason $3k acoustics never sound good to me. Taylors sound overcompensatingly bright to me. Gibsons sound muddy. Many many Martins sound meh to me. But usually the acoustics that I actually like are low-end Martins (or copies) without laminate necks. Anyway, weird.

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Re: It's with great trepidation that I talk about how Gibson has a new CEO...

Post by mackerelmint » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:20 pm

rumfoord wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:51 am

I love Martins. Basically my favorite acoustic sound is a nice but not too nice Martin (in about the $1000 range). One thing I will never understand about acoustics is what and why they sound good. I've played a 000 sized guitar that sounded great and crisp and rich, but most do sound thin. For some reason $3k acoustics never sound good to me. Taylors sound overcompensatingly bright to me. Gibsons sound muddy. Many many Martins sound meh to me. But usually the acoustics that I actually like are low-end Martins (or copies) without laminate necks. Anyway, weird.
It's sorcery, right? I'd probably get a Martin just like you describe if I were in the market for a steel string. They're juuuust right.
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