Picked up an El Dorado last week

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Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by sookwinder » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:12 pm

Couple of weeks back after watching this same guitar on Reverb and GBase and the sellers/stores own website for 3 or 4 monhs I decided to ask some more questions and bit the bullet .... It is a 1968 Epiphone El Doradao.

The seller had it as a 1969 model , but given the pickguard material, the belly up bridge and the serial no. I would say it is a 68 model.
The El Dorado is an unassuming model (although the 64/65 years did have a larger guard). Binding, parallelogram markers (similar to the Epiphone Texan) a Gibson long scale (same as Texan and other square shouldered Gibsons), spruce top, mahogany back and sides, rosewood fretboard.

The secret is that this is just an Epiphone version of the Gibson Hummingbird, for effectively half the price!

Everyone of my vintage acoustics sounds different, even those that are the same guitar from different years. That's the thing about acoustics.
This El Dorado has the smaller nut width than the 65 Hummingbird , but then the neck profile makes up for that thinner nut width. It is very easy to play ... in fact for chords progressions it is an extremely quick guitar to play. The guitar is in some sense almost new... well ... it has hardly been played. there is still a gloss to the guard and to the finish, the back of the neck is silky smooth and the frets have no wear on them at all. The label inside the guitar is clean as a whistle.

The top has really nice coarse grained spruce. There is considerable checking in the finish, evidence yet again of the changes that Gibson made to the clearcoat they used in their manufacturing in that period. But at lest the finish is not flaking away like some from that era. As seen in the photo s there is a strange piece of electric guitar pickguard shaped into a diamond that the end strap button is screwed into. If the hole had been too big and the screw not staying secure, there are easier ways of fixing the issue .. like filling it with white glue and splinters of matches. So this is intriguing, but I am not going to pull it apart to see behind the attachment.

This is the first vintage guitar (electric or acoustic) where there has been some binding shrinkage. One of the photos show where the binding has cracked in two places quite close to each other. the binding is still well secured. I can feel a step between the binding and the guitar body all around, so it has shrunk over the entire length of the binding, even in the neck. Small amount, but one's fingers can feel the "step".

The instrument sounds magnificent... I had a friend around today who described it as a twangy version of the 65 Hummingbird .. almost a country version of the Hummingbird . Which is great.

Easy to play, sounds great, great deal and service (through Garrett Park Guitars), what more can one ask for?

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Larry Mal
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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by Larry Mal » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:40 am

Wonderful guitar !
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by kapepper » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:43 am

Congratulations!!!!
Looks fantastic!

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by loudwizard » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:58 am

Cooool. I’ve been wanting an acoustic guitar of the Gibson lineage for a while.

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by zhivago » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:22 am

Very cool guitar! I love the inlays on it :)
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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by Despot » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:07 am

Another nice score Sookwinder - very nice! I think the inlays work really well with the square shoulder too.

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by shadowplay » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:09 am

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A toast with some fine Scottish wine to another fantastic Sookwinder acoustic.

D
Are you loathsome tonight?

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by StevenO » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:59 am

Another wonderful addition to an already fantastic collection. :)

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by sookwinder » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:19 pm

Thanks guys ... and they all sound different !

Here is the family...

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by windmill » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:07 pm

That is a very nice collection.

Now own up, how many hours a week do you spend playing them ?

:)

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by Despot » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:44 am

Just spotted your family shot David.

I might have asked you this before (I've a goldfish memory these days) ... but have you ever tried a '50s Gibson other than your J200?

I'm just curious as I've had quite a few J50s/J45s now (I have a very narrow idea of what I need in an acoustic - and know that I only really needed to find 'the one') - I've always found the '50s models to be a lot closer to 'the one' (which ended up being a 1950 in the end) than '60s. I think this is mostly down to what I've been looking for in an acoustic - which I seem to get from guitars that are lighter built. I think Yannis has spoken about this before with his own experience - the general construction of Gibsons acousics became a little heavier in the later '50s and '60s ... even before the end of the golden years.

This has always seemed to me to manifest itself in a tighter sound - less boomy and more focused maybe. Does this make any sense to you or am I totally barking up the wrong tree?

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by sookwinder » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:13 pm

Kevin ... good question ... but a question with a multi faceted answer.
Firstly you must take my opinions with the understanding that I have only got into acoustics in the past 3 or 4 years because up until then I never had played any acoustics that I could bond with, even though there were a multitude of tracks from the last 60 years that I love the sounds of acoustics.

The answer below is long an wondering ... so grab a coffee or a Twinings Afternoon cuppa.

I think we can all agree that (just like electrics) there are good and bad acoustics from every era. Sometimes what causes the "badness" is a manufacturing problem or a material problem or even a fundamental design issue. For example the 60s J200s that had the tuneamatic fitted. That sometimes caused the top to cave in and rotate the bridge. Gibsons solution was to add an additional thick cross member that had a screw that literally pushed up (kept up) the top. This caused the brightness and sound of the J200 to diminish . Yet there are awesome recording that have been made with J200s with the tunamatic and additional brace... namely Here Comes The Sun and Behind Blue Eyes.

Do I think (in my experience) Gibsons 60s acoustics are more boxier than 50s Gibson acoustics? Simple answer is no.
Have I played a "boxy" 60s Gibson acoustic ? yes.
Have I played a "boxy" 50s Gibson acoustic? yes.

Of my Gibson and Epiphone (also made by Gibson) 60s acoustics are any boxy? No.
(James here at OSG has played may of them I I would think he would attest to this statement).

The battered 1966 Epiphone Texan (that looks like it was used to dig up grave sites ... in a good way!) that I won on the REVERB competition last year does not have the ringing of the others and when compared to the other acoustics could be said to have a lesser quality .. but I suspect this is because (a) in it's life its probably been used jack up a car to help change a flat and (b) there are a couple of cracks in the top that have been cleated and this will obviously affect the tone and sound when compared to a pristine example of the same guitars model (which I do have as a comparison).

I think in the 'lore that is the "evidence" that floats around the interwebz, in particular relating to acoustic guitars and specifically to vintage acoustic guitars, there is a shit load of bullshit that is just people opinions. Bad ill informed opinions

Much of this is (a) blatantly based upon what they hope is correct because if it isn't then what they have been doing for the past 30 years and what they have been telling others for the same period is wrong and (b) they have never actually played the instruments (type of , versions of, different years of manufacture) that they are bagging or voicing opinions on. The Acoustic Guitar Forum is particularly full of these windbags. I have obtained a lot of knowledge from the AGF but learnt very early on that the same long term members who are regarded as experts are often the worst as spreading BS. This is similar to the many forums years ago that spread the BS that the Offset guitars that Fender manufactured we shit and sounded crap and only loser teenagers and alternate bands used them because they could not afford a LP, Strat or Tele.

Many who voice these opinions (especially on the AGF) only play one type of music on their instrument and again make overarching statements that are totally incorrect if that instrument was used in a different manner in different types of music. Most obvious example is down grading an acoustic because it doesn't achieve the finger picking sound you like when in fact person asking about the acoustic only would use it for chords in a backing bed recording track for a rock/pop song.

OK back to the original question(s) that Kevin asked.
There is a lot that is common between the 50s acoustics I have played that are great and the 60s acoustics that are great (mainly mine).
The fundamental thing is that they were set up correctly. I have bought a 60s Gibson acoustic that I bought as a bargain, almost mint, yet from the comments of the seller it was not what they thought was a good sounding acoustic hence their desire to sell and buy something else. The punt I took on buying it was justified as the guitar was so badly set up it had no soul. I set it up and it is one of the "go to guitar" for the couch.

So have the people who say 60s acoustics are boxy compared well set up 60s acoustics with 50s acoustics ? Don't know. I have and I personally cannot make the statement one era is better than they other. (an additional 10 years of wood drying when the youngest is already 50 years old will not change things much)

Many opinions out there also are affect by other "changes" that are used as the reason a guitar is no good. many times I suspect people just make up shit. For example they conflate the Gibson adjustable saddle (introduced in 1957) with the plastic bridge that was introduced in 62/63. yes the plastic bridge is a stupid idea, but I have played (and owned) acoustics that have had plastic bridges and their sound is magnificent. In particular my 1965 Epiphone Cortez (as well as the 65 Cortez I gave my nephew for his 21st birthday) originally had plastic bridges and I could not believe a heavenly the sound was from both instruments.

I did source NOS 60s rosewood and ebony Gibson replacement bridges for these two acoustics because after discussing the topic of the "catastrophic failure" conditions that a poor quality 50 year old plastic could exhibit, I felt given that these two acoustic guitars were now going to be played and not left in the case under the bed, I didn't want to risk the plastic bridge suddenly failing and may be causing additional damage. The replacement rosewood and ebony bridges were fitted, no change in the sound or timbre or sustain of the guitars ocurred.

So someone sees the plastic bridge ... oh oh oh that guitar will be boxy.
Someone sees the adjustable saddle ... oh oh oh that guitar will not have a good sound, as how can it if the saddle in not sitting on a wooden bridge that is glued to the body? heresy!

The problem with all these opinions is the empirical evidence is not taken into account. That evidence being much of the great music that was recorded in the 60s and 70s used new (at the time) Gibson (and Epiphone) acoustic guitars. I know what instruments were used on many of my favourite tracks from that period but also those I do not know I can make a guess were not recorded on a specially source early banner J45 (from the 40s) just to get "the" sound. Why? no one did that back then. They bought the latest instrument available and played the shit out of them.

I think there are a couple of additional issues that needs to be discussed and how this affects what type of , what era acoustic you may like, or decide to buy.

Firstly is what feels good to you. I never liked the acoustics I had played or owned before I first played a 64 Texan. Why? the nut widths were too damn wide, especially when coupled with the baseball shaped profiles. I had only ever played electrics, so I liked thinner, C shaped profiles. Those acoustics from the 40s and 50s tend to have the wider nut and thicker profiles, although some do have less gigantean profiles.
The 60s Gibsons have the complete gamut of nut widths and profiles ...even in the same era of manufacture. Do not assume that every 1965 Gibson/Epi acoustic has a thin nut width ... all of mine do not. Do not assume every profile is the same. They are not.

The other issue is what sound do you want and how are you going to use the instrument?

Some one who is a real guitarist who sits down on a couch at the end of the day, picks up a banner or a 50s Gibson acoustic and then proceeds to play a slow blues or Gershwin's Summertime or a poignant Johnny Cash tune does so where the only instrument that want to hear and feel and absorb in the acoustic guitar they are holding. They want to hear the woodiness, the years of playing that the old guitar has, they want to smell and feel the guitar.

I am a crap guitarist, I cannot do (but wish I could) what I just described above. My love of the acoustic guitar, Gibson/Epiphone acoustic guitars, is that I can sit on that same very couch and play the guitar imagining how it would sound within the music I am recording. I can use it to write music and listen to the harmonies it produces, the interaction of the notes. I don't use it as a backing instrument when on the couch , I use it as the orchestra or the entire rock band, as I listen. So while I would love to own a 40s banner J45, I suspect I would not use it as much as my 1964 J50 (comparing same models).

I hell of a lot of the music (rock/pop) that I love from the 60s and 70s was recorded using Gibson/Epiphone acoustics that were from 1964 or later. In particular I truly love the sound that Keef / Brian Jones / Mick Taylor achieved in that 64 - 73 period. No one would call any of that sound "boxy".

I think that in the latter part of the 60s there were cost cutting measures at Kalamazoo that may have reduced the amount of time spent on various parts of the manufacturing process, such as shaving braces. This may have resulted in "heavier", less dynamic guitars coming out of the door, but none of my 66, 67, or 68 models show any of this. maybe it didn't really kick into 69 or 70, yet the whole decade is tarred with the same brush. I lent (one by one) all of my parlour sized Gibson/epiphone guitars to a guy at work to compare (63, 3 x 65, 67, 68 models) and he thought the 68 B25 was the best for sitting on the couch and playing what ever old song come into his head. It has a thin nut ... took him 10 minutes to adjust to it.

Another thought has popped into my grey matter... As far as J45 and J50s go, there is a difference between the 50s and very early 60s models, when compare to the middle and later 60s models.

In the 50s and very early 60s the pick guard was made of a thin material, where as the middle and later 60s (63 onwards) the guard was a moulded piece of plastic that was much thicker than the tortoise material used on the 50s acoustics. While I do not think the moulded guard has that much affect on the dreadnaught sized J45/50s (it has a stronger affect on the parlour sized guitars from the 60s), it may have more of an effect on a badly set up or cracked topped guitar. Hard to say. Mind you if you listen to any of the 60s and 70s rock songs that have a 60s J45 in them (with the moulded guard), they usually sound pretty good.

The moulded guard was not used on the Southern Jumbo (the tarted up version of the J45).

In conclusion... do not dismiss any 60s Gibson/Epiphone acoustic out of hand. I personally have not found any to be boxy, but I am sure there are some that are. When playing one, make sure it is set up correctly, if it has an adjustable saddle and it isn't set up correctly, that is what the adjustable saddle can help with. Use it!

As I said at the start of this mess of ideas, 3 or 4 years ago I only had one acoustic guitar, a locally made MATON that is a great guitar but I hated it. Now I have a nice family of almost all 60s Gibson and Epiphone Kalamazoo acoustics. I spent real folding money on them, they all sound different and I have happy times on the couch with them.
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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by kapepper » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:27 am

David, first what a beautiful collection of acoustic gibson and epiphone. And I realize these are just your acoustics ;)

Secondly, please keep do sharing your essays ;D I really enjoy reading them...

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Re: Picked up an El Dorado last week

Post by jimboyogi » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:23 pm

Just my 2c on the above question about '60s Gibson and Epiphone acoustics sounding "boxy". I've had the luxury of playing most of Sookwinder's collection, but that is my only experience with vintage acoustics. Still got to try the new El Dorado, but looking forward to it!

So "boxy".

Makes me think of two possible issues -
1 - sounds like a cardboard box, where the sound is heavily damped and dull sounding,
2 - like an combo amp or speaker cab that is heavily influenced by it's construction or shape, and heavily colours the sound from the speaker.

While every one of these '60s acoustics has it's own distinct thing going on, the only one I have ever found to sound at all damped/dull/coloured is the Gibson B25. That one has the big and thick plastic pick guard, and the smaller parlour sized body. We've speculated that the big thick guard on the small body could be causing the damping, but we really don't know without taking it off! I think Sookwinder has this B25 strung up in Nashville tuning now, and it sounds fantastic for this.

A blanket impression of this family of '60s Gibson/Epi acoustics is that they all give a very rich tone to each note, as if there is lots of harmonics sitting with the fundamental note. This gives lovely rich single note lines and double stops, and super full sounding chords, perhaps at some expense of note separation.

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