How much does a guitar's country of origin matter?

[sookwinder]

and just for you Larry ... genuine question as I would like to know your perspective... questions from the industry I work in..

Is a Toyota built in the USA a Japanese or US car?
is a Buick built in China a Chinese or us Car?
is a VW built in South africa a German or South African car?

[mackerelmint]

and just for you Larry ... genuine question as I would like to know your perspective... questions from the industry I work in..

Is a Toyota built in the USA a Japanese or US car?
is a Buick built in China a Chinese or us Car?
is a VW built in South africa a German or South African car?

I'm not Larry, but I'll say that it depends which calculation you use to gauge the size of an economy. GNP or GDP? GDP would consider the Toyota as american, the Buick as Chinese, and the VW as South African. GNP would consider them Japanese, American, and German respectively because those are the countries that the profits ultimately go to. That's just the economics answer.

So when politicians cite the potential loss of GDP from a foreign firm leaving when they threaten that to affect politics or push for a tax break, know that the politicians in question are selling you a load of shit because that money was never staying in the country to begin with.

[Larry Mal]

Just for consideration for this debate.... I suspect that the concept of a 6 stringed hollow body instrument, that was light enough to be carried around and had the ability to be readily tuned was not the invention of the USA , in the 50s.

Discuss...

I never claimed that the United States invented the guitar, I'm very aware of the instrument's history, from the vihuela and the cittern and so on. I like to study the history of instruments from around the world a bit.

This is why I am sticking to branded things like Stratocasters, which were invented in the States. This is why I went out of my way to say that I would buy a German made Hofner, another culture that did not invent the electric guitar, or a Japanese made Ibanez (in theory).

But the Stratocaster, the Les Paul, the dreadnaught and so on are things that were developed here.

Of course, anyone can make a variant of any of that, and I don't care about that.

What I do care about is American made companies deciding that the American worker is a detriment to profitability. Most of those battles have long been fought and my nation's laborers have lost. It is what it is... but I'll be fucked if I am going to support Fender's greed in making American cultural icons like the Stratocaster.

I know you don't understand, and that's fine. But I'm not wrong to feel this way, either. I am a conscientious consumer as much as I can be, which isn't really much anymore, and I refuse to reward American guitar makers who lay off American workers in order to employ cheaper workers in other nations even as they sell me watered down versions of my cultural heritage.

Fuck that.

[Larry Mal]

Regarding your question about the cars, I don't exactly know how to answer that.

But, why is Toyota making cars here, that's the question I want to ask?

I'm pretty sure it's because there are a lot of Americans like me that refused to consider buying cars made overseas and so Toyota and the other companies responded to that. Some of us got a little pissed off at seeing foreign car companies destroying our domestic industry and laying our well paid workers off. More of us should have been angry about that- not that the Japanese did anything wrong. But Americans should have supported ourselves much better than we did.

That tells me that it's even more important to keep up my stance with guitar companies.

Fender doesn't give a shit if they employ any Americans at all. They don't care if the guitars are any good at all. Sure, they make them be OK, but they don't take any real pride in it. They just want money. If they can cut quality and people will still buy them, they'll do it, every time. The second they can find a cheaper worker to make the stuff, fuck it, they'll move there. They don't care about anything except lucre.

For the record, the last vehicle I ever bought was this:



It's a 1970 GMC 1500. I liked it a lot. I felt connected to American history when I drove it. The GMC plant that handled trucks back then was in the St. Louis area. My ex-old lady's father, when he got back from Vietnam, worked at that plant in 1970. There's a good chance that he put a panel or whatever on the thing back in the day.

If GMC made an imitation of this vehicle in Indonesia and sold it here, I wouldn't feel any excitement or connection to it. Why would I? They fired all the American guys who made the trucks, gave themselves a bunch of fat bonuses, and paid people continents away to reproduce it? What on earth emotional connection would I have to any of that?

[sookwinder]

I know you don't understand, and that's fine. But I'm not wrong to feel this way, either. I am a conscientious consumer as much as I can be, which isn't really much anymore, and I refuse to reward American guitar makers who lay off American workers in order to employ cheaper workers in other nations even as they sell me watered down versions of my cultural heritage.
Fuck that.

I think you a being are being somewhat disingenuous to me saying I don't understand.
Of course I understand
I buy Australian if (and only if) the product is good and I am not being deliberately ripped off.
So I understand that you want to buy American.

If you were born and living in Bolivia (and I am assuming Bolivia does not have a thriving electric guitar manufacturing industry) you would be saying "Buy Bolivian" I understand that. But you are living in the USA ... you have the unique situation where the country you live in is also the country that had the initial culture changes to develop the electric guitar and also still manufactures them.

It is very easy for you to say "Yes I buy only from USA, therefore I do care what the origin of the guitar is"
Where as using my Bolivia example, some one from that country may want to "buy Bolivian" but cannot because there are no high quality guitars made in Bolivia, so they must buy from outside of their country.

And I don't say thing next thing a totally negative way ... but ... the rest of the world has had USA expansionism for the past
70 years ... if anyone in the world understands the negative effects of cultural appropriation or deterioration of markets because of other countries exporting it is THE REST OF THE WORLD, rather than the USA.

Yes you may now be experiencing this in the past 15 - 20 years .... but other countries have experienced this since the end of WW2!
Welcome to OUR world!

[sookwinder]

one last bit of real life experience ... the company I work for ceased production of passenger vehicles almost 12 months ago....
The first badge Holden was manufactured in 1948.
Why? for many reason... but one reason was that ( 5 or 6 years back) the bean counters in Detroit saw the Aussie $$ = US$1.10 .
oh oh oh too expensive ... too expensive

Shut down Holden.

now the Aussie $$ = US$0.70

So without any true understanding of the ebb and flow of exchange rates, especially the volatile AU$$, a decision was made to end 70+ years of manufacturing our own vehicles and 100+ of manufacturing vehicles of other people.

Sound familiar ?

[Larry Mal]

And I don't say thing next thing a totally negative way ... but ... the rest of the world has had USA expansionism for the past
70 years ... if anyone in the world understands the negative effects of cultural appropriation or deterioration of markets because of other countries exporting it is THE REST OF THE WORLD, rather than the USA.

Yes you may now be experiencing this in the past 15 - 20 years .... but other countries have experienced this since the end of WW2!
Welcome to OUR world!

I feel like a lot of times when I talk about this no one really is paying attention to anything I am saying, but just making their own points.

Remember: while I do think that it's important to support local and national businesses, that's not entirely the stance I am taking here.

Consider that I said I would buy a German made Hofner bass, right? Or an Indian sitar, or a Turkish saz. Or an instrument from Bolivia. My position is not that I won't buy things from other nations. I would buy a guitar made in Bolivia, for that matter- at least potentially. I just won't buy a Stratocaster or a Les Paul from there.

Also, I have not complained about competition from other nations. That's natural and expected and good. When I go out to buy a car, I'll strongly want to buy an American car, but if I don't perceive them as being better than Japanese cars, then I will probably get the best vehicle I can get. I won't want to do that, but it's just too big and important a purchase to get a money pit that performs poorly (I'm not saying that's the case- American cars are great).

The only thing that I am resisting, and this will be the last time I say it because no one is listening, is the idea that American companies want to make more money for themselves by laying off American workers, paying workers overseas instead, and then selling the same product back to me. The companies view the American worker as an unnecessary burden and a detriment and the elimination of those workers as being a benefit to their own bottom line, so they can enrich the few at the cost of the many. They want me to accept this- and I won't.

And even at that, I have to usually accept this shit, when I buy an air conditioning unit, for instance, that's no longer made here. When I buy a TV, Americans no longer make those.

But I draw the line at guitars. For one, there are enough old guitars out there that even if Fender and all the rest ceased production in the States tomorrow, I would still be able to not do business with them, and I wouldn't. Especially since they would almost certainly cut the quality down simultaneously, and even if they didn't, the electric guitar doesn't offer anything new compared to 50 years ago. It's not a car or a computer. The new ones aren't any better.

There's also a matter of heritage: I resent this kind of thing. I don't know if you like it, but bourbon is America's whiskey. I fucking love it. It's made from American grown corn, we've been making it forever, generations of American kids take their first gulps of liquor with bourbon and their eyes burn, it's what grandfathers share with their grandsons out hunting, and on and on.

If the bourbon makers moved production of corn and the stills out to Indonesia, and they made that shit out there in the jungle, and laid off all the American distillers, I wouldn't buy that shit either.

Bourbon comes from Kentucky, champagne comes from Champagne, Gorgonzola comes from Milan, roquefort comes from the south of France, scotch comes from Scotland, and Stratocasters come from California- or at least they should.

So my thing is, I am not going to participate in Fender's plan to make more money for the executives by laying off American laborers and move production overseas. They want to do that, I don't want them to do that, I can't stop it, but I sure the fuck won't support it.

[Larry Mal]

And like, do you want Chinese champagne? I'm sure they can grow Pinot Blanc, Pinor Meunier and Chardonnay grapes in Hebei Province. The methodoise champagne isn't a protected secret, so the Chinese could probably make a sparkling wine cheaper than the French can. Why not?

But, you know, you can get a sparkling wine from anywhere. But when I buy a champagne, I'm not just thirsty, I'm buying a product that I can learn about. It's French culture, and art, and heritage all wrapped up in one bottle, you can drink it, you can taste it, you can learn about it. That's who they are, that's what they do.

Some Champagne houses in France have been making the product for hundreds of years. I want them to keep making that product, I want them to keep making it right there, where they always have been, where only that soil exists, where only those grapes can be grown. It's a heritage we can all share in- I'll pay more for that, when I want a real champagne. Every nation and culture does something like that.

So no, I don't want Chinese champagne, and when I see some bullshit "Fender" Stratocaster made in Indonesia or Mexico, that's exactly what I see. Chinese champagne.

"But look how much of it I can buy!"

[Fiddy]

Sushi is from Japan, i sure as hell wouldn't want to eat it if i had to import it from Japan or maybe ha.

[Larry Mal]

Sushi is from Japan, i sure as hell wouldn't want to eat it if i had to import it from Japan or maybe ha.

Shit, the amount of marihuana you've been smoking? You'd eat it.

[Fiddy]

Sushi is from Japan, i sure as hell wouldn't want to eat it if i had to import it from Japan or maybe ha.

Shit, the amount of marihuana you've been smoking? You'd eat it.

Bahahaa

[Larry Mal]

I'll try and head a couple of questions off before we get to them:

"But it's just a guitar, Larry... just a hunk of wood, some wires, it's nothing special."

Then why did you buy a Fender? You could have bought anything else.

"Those American made guitars are just too darn expensive! I can't afford that!"

Let me be the first to apologize for the living wages being paid to my countrymen being an impediment for you getting what you wanted. I'm glad they were able to resolve that for you.

I know that's a dick thing to say, I'm kind of kidding.

[TeenageShutdown!]

I love reading long winded blind patriotism rants from people behind their Chineese computers, who’s dwelings are outfitted with foreign electronics, clothing, furniture, tools, furnishings, & consumables. But at least your American car actually contains 20% of American components, while the vehicle was assembled with foreign made machinery.

But hey, at least that guitar is assembled in America, with foreign parts, so you can beat your egotistical chest. Not that its orgin made you any better of a player...

[Larry Mal]

I love reading long winded blind patriotism rants from people behind their Chineese computers, who’s dwelings are outfitted with foreign electronics, clothing, furniture, tools, furnishings, & consumables. But at least your American car actually contains 20% of American components, while the vehicle was assembled with foreign made machinery.

But hey, at least that guitar is assembled in America, with foreign parts, so you can beat your egotistical chest. Not that its orgin made you any better of a player...

That certainly is a rude thing to say to me. Hey, why don't you fuck yourself, asshole? Learn to fucking spell words.

Speaking of tough guys behind keyboards, none of that is something you would say to my face twice, champ.

[mackerelmint]

I love reading long winded blind patriotism rants from people behind their bla bla bla I'm super rude and let's turn this into accusing someone of an ego trip.

I don't think you do, because if you did you would have read all the times he acknowledged how inevitable and hard to avoid all that stuff is. And you've had picked up on the "I'd rather support manufacturing in my own country" and "something about buying an american idea from another country is disagreeable to me" themes that aren't at all egotistical or blindly patriotic or chest beating.

Are you drunk, or are you just really that much of an asshole?

Not that its orgin (sic) made you any better of a player...

Dear god, even at my worst I'd never go there. What's wrong with you?