Vintage National guitars

For guitars of the straight waisted variety (or reverse offset).
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HH1978
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Vintage National guitars

Post by HH1978 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:55 pm

Ok, they are acoustics, and resos, so not the most usual guitars here, but I know some members here like them...

I've been collecting guitars for the 25 last years, but recently became aware that I missed one type of guitars that is essential to a large part of the music I listen to. I had resos before, but they were cheapos, and not really satisfying. And I had considered buying a vintage National a lot of times before, but I can't remember why I didn't.

So, as I hadn't bought any guitar for more than one year, and knew exactly the ones I wanted to keep and the ones I could let go, I started to sell and trade to acquire a National, and loved it so much I ended up with four of them : a 1930 variation 2 steel/brass or steel/copper style O, a 1929-30 polychrome steel, 3pc body Triolian, a 1931 steel, 2pc body walnut triolian and a 1928 wood body triolian.

I have about 10 guitars less than before I started this process (sold or traded), but totally happy. These things are just incredible! And they all sound different (my personal favorite is the wood body, but the others are fantastic too).

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Con-Tiki!
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by Con-Tiki! » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:27 pm

i don't know if you have a way to do it, but it would be really interesting to see a clip comparing them all.
same player, same room, varied sounds.
(Christopher, also)
I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing i ever heard come out a pair of headphones.

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HH1978
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by HH1978 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:54 pm

I will do it with pleasure, the only issue is to find the time.

To be fair, I'll also wait until all of them are strung similarly. Nickel wound vs phosphor bronze makes a big difference. Currently, two are strung with nickel strings and two with phosphor bronze strings. The latter sounds better acoustically. I was planning to give DR strings zebra a try on the ones that have a pickup, the style O and the 1931 triolian (same pickup a bit hotter, Barcus Berry are reputedly not very consistent in output), but I'll try regular phosphor bronze before and see how that works with the BB.

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mulesing
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by mulesing » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:15 pm

Wow! Those look incredible.

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windmill
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by windmill » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:33 pm

That is a nice collection

Any reason you haven't got a tri-cone

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antisymmetric
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by antisymmetric » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:36 pm

That's awesome, it's a rabbit hole I'd love to go down, $$ permitting. Seconded on the comparison clips request if you can swing it. 8)
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by shadowplay » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:46 pm

Something I know very little to nothing about but really interesting to look at.

I'm quite interested in the artwork, both the engraving and the stencils and transfers (I assume they're transfers with perhaps the odd bit of paint). Do you know if the designs were unique to the guitars or if they were just bought in? I'm also wondering how much hand work was involved and if the engravings were done freehand or with a pantograph and if some of the engravings and artworks were unique?

I guess I could look this all up myself so don't feel obliged to answer.

D
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antisymmetric
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by antisymmetric » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:12 am

If you're into new Resos, there's a guy here in NZ that builds some lovely stuff: https://mattsenguitars.co.nz/guitars/
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by HH1978 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:19 am

Any reason you haven't got a tri-cone
The price, mainly. Round neck vintage tricones are very rare, and people usually want crazy money for them. The cheapest I've ever seen for sale was a 1928 style 1 priced at 6000€. Usually people ask twice that price. I would never pay that much for a guitar, nor could I by the way. And I'm not good enough at lap playing to consider a square neck.
I was lucky enough to play on Miker Lewis's vintage tricone though, sweet guitar for sure! Maybe I'll get a modern one in the future, but not now.
I'm quite interested in the artwork, both the engraving and the stencils and transfers (I assume they're transfers with perhaps the odd bit of paint). Do you know if the designs were unique to the guitars or if they were just bought in? I'm also wondering how much hand work was involved and if the engravings were done freehand or with a pantograph and if some of the engravings and artworks were unique?
As far as I know, all artworks were designed in house by National. Wheter they are unique to each guitar depends on the model.

The style O had 7 variations in time (8 if you include body changes). They are nickel plated and sandblasted. Mine has the variation 2, recognizable at the frame around the body (only on variations 1&2), and the lack of clouds on the upper part of the back (as opposed to a variation 1). For reference, the probably most known style O's, I mean the ones used by Keith Richards and Mark Knopfler, are both 1937-38 variation 7 and have 14 frets clear of the body (as opposed to 12 frets on variations 1 to 5). Chris Whitley's Style O is a 1939-42 variation 8, with a different headstock, referred to as "spade head" and palm trees on the side of the body as well.

The walnut triolian was hand sprayed with nitrocellulose (1930-1932) and later (1933-1939) finished with baked enamel, recognizable to its more vibrant color and often better preservation.
As they were hand sprayed, there are some variations in colors and patterns, but they all look quite similar to each other.

The polychrome triolian was hand sprayed with nitrocellulose. The palm trees were made using combinations of different stencils, so each guitar is virtually unique, though they have a lot of similarities, of course. The blue and red spots were also hand sprayed, adding to the unicity of each guitar.
The very first ones (first issue, around 100 guitars maybe, no letter in the serial number) are recognizable to the sun being full and much higher. Mine has a pattern sometimes referred to as "man on the tree". Basically, the palm tree was mirror reversed to create a symmetrical image. It can usually be found on guitars from 1P to around 500P, and is usually a good indication if you're looking for a 3 pieces body. The following issues had a non symmetrical image that stayed pretty much the same to about 1800P, then the stencilled palm trees became weaker. It's also at this moment that the finish color was changed to blue/green, and the maple fretboard was stained black instead of painted. The last ones (polychrome finish was discontinued by 1934) have more abstract and blotchy palm trees.

The wooden triolian has a nitrocellulose finish similar to the steel polychrome, but the hawaian scene on the back and the ocean waves on the front are decals. The first wooden triolians had anemone flowers painted instead of the hawaian decals, but only a handful of them are known today.

Only the tricones were engraved. They came in 5 styles, each engraved style having known a couple of variations : style 1 had no engraving, style 2 has the "wild rose", rare style 2.5 has the "acanthus", style 3 has the "lily of the valley", style 4 has the "chrysanthemum".

If you want to know more about the artwork on these, I highly recommend Mark Makin's book : Palm tress, senoritas...and rocketships!

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HH1978
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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by HH1978 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:19 am

I meant trees of course

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Re: Vintage National guitars

Post by MechaBulletBill » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:16 am

Great thread. I would love to research and hunt for a quality resonator one day.

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