NFGD - 1950 Gibson J45

[Despot]

New Final Guitar Day - a 1950 Gibson J45



Quick pic for now - more to come when I get a chance later.

As I've posted on here before I'm going through a process of selling off gear as I get to the final furlong of saving before house buying. I've decided that everything is getting distilled down into three guitars - two electrics and one acoustic.

So on Saturday I sold the Polaris White SG Junior. The first of the horde to get sold. What I hadn't planned on was finding this at the same time for exactly the same amount raised through the sale of the SG - a 1950 J45 in pretty good condition for it's age. It's had a neck reset and a few side cleats, but it's actually in pretty good nick considering that it's older than my father! The top is good - the action is nice and low still and the neck is a bloody tree trunk (which I love).

I had intended to keep my True Vintage J45 as part of the three guitars (along with my Jazzmaster - with the third slot being the one I'm struggling with deciding), but this thing is just a beauty. I was playing it for about an hour thinking to myself 'oh this is nice, but I don't know if it's that different to the true vintage' - then I handed the guitar over to another person to play so I could hear it ... suddenly I could hear the guitar properly. It was loud, strident but sweet sounding. It's like the sound of my True Vintage but with more volume and everything I like about the TV ramped up even further. Without doubt the nicest round shoulder Gibson I've played (though I've yet to play a banner).

I've had a few J50s before - the nicest was a '57 with a big old tree trunk of a neck. I had a '54 as well, which had a surprisingly slender neck. This one has the neck of the '57 but an improved version of the sound from the '54 - so it's perfect.

That means two guitars down. One to go.

The remaining guitar should be an ES. Not necessarily the ES345 that I have right now - though I may keep that. If I found an ES355 from pre-65 I could see myself selling the ES345 and then being okay with selling the rest of the gear. Through getting this J45 I've realised that I can potentially allow myself to end up with the 'perfect' trio of guitars and still have a decent bit of money to add to my savings. Having now passed the mental threshold that says "I'm getting rid of this or that" it's freed me up to think about it a little differently.

So Guitar No.3 left to go ... let's see what happens there in the next 12 months.

[sookwinder]

Kevin, everyone needs a J45 (or J50) ... it should written in each countries bill of rights.
Nice looking J45 ... how are the tuners? of that vintage some seem to last forever, others bind up and the gears go "out of centre".

[zhivago]

Wow, this is one great looking guitar...aside from the finish it must be identical to my J50 from '52...these boxes really can fill a room.

I love the almost built-in reverb in the sound as a note decays.

I have always thought that three is the magic number for a collection (although now with the Martin I have broken my own rule for the first time ever!). Looking forward to see what the third slot will be. I'd keep the ES345 personally, as finding a reasonably priced PAF guitar is pretty difficult in the EU, but that's just me

Nice one!

[Despot]

Thanks David - They're rock solid - a little stiff, but most importantly they hold tune perfectly. I've been playing this hard all weekend and I haven't needed to retune it (though to be fair acoustics always tend to hold tune far better than electrics - I guess you tend to do far less string bending on an acoustic).

Yannis - yep ... this one is great. You don't really realise how it sounds until you're on the other side of it listening to someone else play - I know that's always true of acoustics (and it's why when I'm planning to check one out I usually bring a friend who can play too), but it's really evident how this projects and how loud it is to the listener (though not so to the player). It's quite different to the '52 J50 I had - that had a great sound, but this seems to have a little more top end sparkle compared to the J50. Plus it's got the perfect neck - which the '52 didn't have (still surprised that there were necks that slim in the '50s).

As mentioned on your Martin NGD thread, this came from our mutual acquaintance John - he actually showed it to me about four years ago when he first bought it and I had a quick play. It stuck with me all these years ... so much so that when I saw this hanging on the wall of the store we both go to I guessed immediately that it was the same one. It was the fastest deal ever worked out - I think I played it for all of about one minute before saying "alright ... let's work this out" to the store owner.

I've spoken before about knowing that my Jazzmaster was the one for me when I first picked it up - I tuned it up, hit an E chord and it was like a puppy looking to be played with ... it wanted to be played and felt immediately familiar. It's the same with this J45 - I think I played the start of that Richmond Fontaine song 'The Boyfriends' on it and the treble strings had this, as you described it, built in reverb sort of overtone sound ... it just sounded wonderful. When I handed it over to the store owner (who can really play) it just blew me away.

As for the final guitar ... I hear you. But there's a lot of money locked up in that ES345 - those PAFs are identical to Patent Numbers in every respect ... so if I could find an ES355 from ... say '64 with a Vibrola I would probably sell the ES345. Same pickups, but collectors will always value that PAF sticker over the Patent Number ones - to me they're the same until later in the '60s when they swap to pre-T Tops and then T-Tops. Selling off the other guitars will put me in funds for once - a cash buyer rather than a trade-in buyer ... and that always helps. I think there's scope to find a good ES355 and still to have a good deal of money to go into the house fund. And if I'm going with the Final Three logic then I've got to consider that a vintage ES355 has always been the end state goal for me - but if I'm going to buy a guitar to finish the trio out then it needs to be perfect. It needs to have a chunky neck, wide nut and great sounding pickups. From all the realistic years that means late '63, '64 or early '65. '59 ES355s tend to have that slightly skinnier neck - the '60 profile came in as an 'upgrade' on the ES355 nearly immediately - there is a small batch (the 'first rack') form '59 that have the chunky neck ... but they're extremely expensive due to having PAFs and ... well, having that magic '59 date. By late '63 the neck goes to chunky but I think they can still have the sideways vibrola (which I don't really like). By '64 you have vibrolas, a chunky neck profile and still a wide nut. That's sort of my target if I can find one in the next year.

[Despot]

Some better photos.

As you can see it's a well worn and used guitar - there are a few cleats inside - very discreet and tidy work by whoever did it. I don't think the pickguard is original (material looks wrong to me), but that's it I think.

[shadowplay]

I'm adding you, Yannis and David to my foelist, it's the only sensible option.

I'm sitting here sickened at the thought of how great Galway Girl sounds when the three of you fire it through your gorgeous old guitars...or at least they will be gorgeous once you get rid of all those unsightly scratches with a few dabs of Topps.

.

Once youve finished with the Topps...spare a thought for the increasingly bitter little people.

D

[Despot]

Would you believe D that I actually thought of you when I was buying this - or rather, Shadowplay logic. Basically I decided that if I am only going to have three guitars, and seeing as how selling the rest of my gear allows me to be a cash rather than trade in buyer, it gives me a unique (and probably once in a life time opportunity) to be able to get the three perfect guitars for me. While my first sale has ended up with less ready cash than I'd planned, it also ticked off the second guitar on the list. Overall the impact of not making as much cash on selling the SG and True Vintage J45 won't be huge in the wider scheme - but I know I'm unlikely to be in the position to be able to buy something like this again.

[InLimbo]

Good lord.

That is a dream (okay, more of a fantasy for me, ha) guitar.

Despot, well done. One of the few guitars on this site that has me really pushing the uncomfortable side of envy.

I think that's the most beautiful acoustic ever made, the sloped shoulders are so perfect. The finish and character on that one are so classy. I've been eyeing the possibility of getting a reissue version of this, or even the True Vintage model, but the one that I picked up in my local Guitar Center was utterly disappointing. I tossed it off as a bad egg. Out of curiosity, is there any resemblance in the reissues compared to the likes of these? Or should Gibson just completely rename the model?

[sookwinder]

Kevin, I think what you just wrote resonates with me in a lot. In life we all have opportunities and sometimes we grab them sometimes we don't. (work, relationships, purchases, life styles) ... but each time you need to have an understanding of the direction you intend to go, you also need to do your homework and learn about the item you wish to purchase long before the particular item appears before you ... whether it is a guitar or a house or anything in between.

What we are discussing is a first world problem... when to and not to purchase something. Many of those reading this thread are too young or not in a position to even contemplate a purchase like this J45 (or like Yannis has), and certainly if you are finding it hard to meet home loan payments or put food on the table for children then it is all pipe dream and you should just put it off for 5 or 10 years. That is the hard cold fact of life ... sometimes you have to wait to get what you want.

As Yannis mentioned he has waited 10 years (saved for ten years) to get, what is for him, THE instrument of his dreams. But what it also shows is that when an opportunity arises decisions must be made... sell something else to pay for it, borrow $$ from someone, or just wait until the next opportunity arises when (hopefully) one is in a better financial situation.

The first 15 years of my working life were basically paying off my home loan ... many many things passed me by ... some I regret, but the reality is I would have nothing now (ie no house/home) if I had have succumbed to the "quick buy it" voice in my head.

The fact that you have been able to make the rational decision to reduce the herd down to just three guitars with your eyes now set on becoming a home owner is fantastic. I wish you all the good will one can muster from the other side of the world (and standing upside down while doing it )

I have lived in countries where I would walk to work in the morning past people who literally lived in cardboard boxes and ate food scraps from the restaurant rubbish bins .. I know musos here in Oz who will be paying rent up until they play their last gig .... having one's own abode, not having to worry about rent, investing in yourself via the equity in a home is worth more than a room full of guitars.

And when finally you owe nothing to anyone, sitting back playing one of the three guitars, the music will surely sound sweet.

[Despot]

Thanks InLimbo.

As for how TVs stack up against vintage ... it depends. Like all things Gibson there are variations in the True Vintage models - even in the same model year between guitars that should be identical.

I have a really nice True Vintage at the minute - right now I have both, the TV is sold, but not getting picked up until Saturday, so I have a few days to A/B the two. The issue I had with the TV was the slightly too slim neck. It had the same neck as my old '52 J50 - a round but slender neck ... different to the '60s slim taper ... more like a slim modern Fender neck. Other than that it's a great guitar.

The TV is absolutely in the same ballpark as this J45 - it's definitely better than a standard J45 to my ear. The TV has an adirondack top (which I think my vintage J45 doesn't have ... I'm not 100%, but I think adirondack tops stopped in the '40s) so that's an advantage. The difference is in the resonance and overtones. A bit in the volume too. I don't think that's down to construction differences (the TV is braced very lightly - it's an extremely light guitar, just like the old one) - I think it's down to the breaking in of the wood. I'd love to think that after 50 years of play the true vintage might even sound better than the '50 ... it certainly has the potential.

Some years of the true vintage had a fatter neck - if I was looking for one I'd try to find one with a thicker neck, but that's just personal preference. You'd need to try a few too - they do vary. But I'll put it this way ... I didn't feel 'hard up' just having the TV - I'd had J50s before, and I kept the True Vintage because it sounded so good. This J45 just came along at the right time when I had literally just been handed a stack of bills from selling the SG Junior. Had it not been hanging behind the counter I would have gone home and probably played it later that evening (as I tend to do at weekends). The vintage J45 is sort of like fast forwarding the process that has begun on the true vintage ... I'm a firm believer that acoustics sound better when played all the time - and that it takes a few years for a new guitar to open up. The vintage J45 has opened up .. and then some!

[Despot]

Thanks for that David - now that I've made the choice to start downsizing and decided what I'm going to do in the end (the Final Three Guitars if you will) it feels a lot easier than it ever has before to let stuff go.

Like you I've spent a lot of time in countries where folk don't have a bean. I understand that I'm lucky to be where I am - it wasn't handed to me by any stretch, but I'm sure that holds just as true for people who work their fingers to the bone for minimum wage as much as it does for me or anyone else. Hard work is hard work, whatever you do.

I've lived on my own means since I was 17. That was over 20 years ago. What I want now more than anything else ... more than guitars or amps or whatever ... is a home. I'm within touching distance of that now, for the first time ever really. If I wasn't ... hell ... I'd be selling everything.

[fuzzjunkie]

I don't have an acoustic guitar, but if I did, I'd want it to be one like that

[Ursa Minor]

Oh wow! Amazing, Kev. So glad to see you're really doing it! And what a good time to have a little fun exploring your top 3 guitars. This is a two-fold solution - finding a life long guitar and letting go or others to get closer to that home!

Man...all of these amazing acoustics could really push me into different territory. I've been getting back into acoustic a lot lately and really enjoying every aspect of it. The ease of just picking it up and playing - not being bothered with switches, amps, etc. Not being bothered with not being able to bend strings. I don't even bother with picks. In fact I've been playing so much acoustic that when I finally got to play some electric I was bummed by the lack of resonance and response.

Love that its just so bare and pure. Hearing the wood and feeling it resonate is just so real. I mean, I'm not just figuring this out now but somehow I have a new found appreciation. You and Yannis' new guitars have made me seriously consider scaling down some of my electric gear to grab a really nice flat top. I never thought I'd be that person.

I have an OK acoustic that really does it for me now, but its got issues and will always be a beater guitar. Broken headstock repair, several top cracks, have to keep light strings on it, etc. So I wonder how much nicer a truly good acoustic could be.

[InLimbo]

The TV is absolutely in the same ballpark as this J45 - it's definitely better than a standard J45 to my ear. The TV has an adirondack top (which I think my vintage J45 doesn't have ... I'm not 100%, but I think adirondack tops stopped in the '40s) so that's an advantage. The difference is in the resonance and overtones. A bit in the volume too. I don't think that's down to construction differences (the TV is braced very lightly - it's an extremely light guitar, just like the old one) - I think it's down to the breaking in of the wood. I'd love to think that after 50 years of play the true vintage might even sound better than the '50 ... it certainly has the potential.

Ah, there is some hope! Thanks for the reply; it's good to hear that the new ones live up to a similar reputation of the old ones.

You know, life is weird. I'm sort of in the opposite position of you. I believe I'm quite a bit younger than you, under 30, and my wife and I purchased our house a hair over 3 years ago. This is an awesome feat that I'm pretty proud of (considering the stereotypical millennial stigma), but most of the kudos really goes to her. We've actually lived together for 9 years (almost to the day), and having a house to be proud of, especially one that you like, in a location you like, is an awesome feeling. We work extremely hard, and we both come from blue collar background, and tend to respect the value of the earned dollar. It makes us a little more conscious on how we spend and what we spend, and it makes those choices mean a lot.

The flip to that is that I feel like I've missed out, you know? That I've never been a single "adult", I've never had anything that was really "mine" since our money has been together for nearly the whole time, etc. It's always a team effort, and she always deserves credit, sometimes more than I do.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm slightly envious not only of the guitar but of you (and zhivago for that matter) and your ability to make something like this happen and say that you did it yourself. You should be proud of yourself for being able to responsibly purchase guitars like this, to realize dreams that can seem completely out of reach and be able to still go for a house at the same time. I'll never have that - my wife will always have helped. It's kind of weird, like my ego is being threatened or something haha. I'm saying this as a compliment, by the way, and definitely not with anything negative towards my wife's support (who knows how far backwards I'd be if it weren't for her).

[zhivago]

Thanks David - They're rock solid - a little stiff, but most importantly they hold tune perfectly. I've been playing this hard all weekend and I haven't needed to retune it (though to be fair acoustics always tend to hold tune far better than electrics - I guess you tend to do far less string bending on an acoustic).

Yannis - yep ... this one is great. You don't really realise how it sounds until you're on the other side of it listening to someone else play - I know that's always true of acoustics (and it's why when I'm planning to check one out I usually bring a friend who can play too), but it's really evident how this projects and how loud it is to the listener (though not so to the player). It's quite different to the '52 J50 I had - that had a great sound, but this seems to have a little more top end sparkle compared to the J50. Plus it's got the perfect neck - which the '52 didn't have (still surprised that there were necks that slim in the '50s).

As mentioned on your Martin NGD thread, this came from our mutual acquaintance John - he actually showed it to me about four years ago when he first bought it and I had a quick play. It stuck with me all these years ... so much so that when I saw this hanging on the wall of the store we both go to I guessed immediately that it was the same one. It was the fastest deal ever worked out - I think I played it for all of about one minute before saying "alright ... let's work this out" to the store owner.

I've spoken before about knowing that my Jazzmaster was the one for me when I first picked it up - I tuned it up, hit an E chord and it was like a puppy looking to be played with ... it wanted to be played and felt immediately familiar. It's the same with this J45 - I think I played the start of that Richmond Fontaine song 'The Boyfriends' on it and the treble strings had this, as you described it, built in reverb sort of overtone sound ... it just sounded wonderful. When I handed it over to the store owner (who can really play) it just blew me away.

As for the final guitar ... I hear you. But there's a lot of money locked up in that ES345 - those PAFs are identical to Patent Numbers in every respect ... so if I could find an ES355 from ... say '64 with a Vibrola I would probably sell the ES345. Same pickups, but collectors will always value that PAF sticker over the Patent Number ones - to me they're the same until later in the '60s when they swap to pre-T Tops and then T-Tops. Selling off the other guitars will put me in funds for once - a cash buyer rather than a trade-in buyer ... and that always helps. I think there's scope to find a good ES355 and still to have a good deal of money to go into the house fund. And if I'm going with the Final Three logic then I've got to consider that a vintage ES355 has always been the end state goal for me - but if I'm going to buy a guitar to finish the trio out then it needs to be perfect. It needs to have a chunky neck, wide nut and great sounding pickups. From all the realistic years that means late '63, '64 or early '65. '59 ES355s tend to have that slightly skinnier neck - the '60 profile came in as an 'upgrade' on the ES355 nearly immediately - there is a small batch (the 'first rack') form '59 that have the chunky neck ... but they're extremely expensive due to having PAFs and ... well, having that magic '59 date. By late '63 the neck goes to chunky but I think they can still have the sideways vibrola (which I don't really like). By '64 you have vibrolas, a chunky neck profile and still a wide nut. That's sort of my target if I can find one in the next year.

This all makes sense...I think the right third guitar is definitely out there somewhere...two down, one to go!

Can't wait to see what you come up with. One of the greatest things about owning these old guitars, even for a little while, is that it de-mythifies them, and that really is a great thing. You can then evaluate them realistically and see what works or not.