gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

For guitars of the straight waisted variety (or reverse offset).
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wingnutkj
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by wingnutkj » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:08 am

Further news on Gibson's financial woes:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/ ... me-rapidly
But the situation facing the iconic Nashville-based music instrument maker, which has annual revenues of more than $1 billion, is far from normal: CFO Bill Lawrence recently left the company after less than a year on the job and just six months before $375 million of senior secured notes will mature. On top of that, another $145 million in bank loans will come due immediately if those notes, issued in 2013, are not refinanced by July 23.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by sears » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:47 am

their tools and facilities will be bought by Heritage
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by budda12ax7 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:42 pm

you missed the gibson sg flying eagle for 8,000$

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by shadowplay » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:32 am

They just covered this on BBC radio and interviewed UK Blooze lady and 'British blues guitarist of the year' Chantel McGregor. Her view was 'other brands are better at being Gibson than Gibson', they are being pinched from above and below, they made lots of bad business diversification decisions and the age of the guitar hero has largely gone the way of the dodo.

They also talked about how heavy they generally are, how she has to play a Gibson sitting down and then talked about the St Vincent guitar.

D
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by wingnutkj » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:46 am

shadowplay wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:32 am
bad business diversification decisions
Have you seen the Raymond Weil Gibson watches? I had a bizarre experience in the Argyll Arcade once, when my girlfriend and I tarried too long outside one of the shops and the salesgirl, having overheard me mentioning guitars, tried to convince me it was just what I needed. It really wasn't.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by shadowplay » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:09 am

wingnutkj wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:46 am
shadowplay wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:32 am
bad business diversification decisions
Have you seen the Raymond Weil Gibson watches? I had a bizarre experience in the Argyll Arcade once, when my girlfriend and I tarried too long outside one of the shops and the salesgirl, having overheard me mentioning guitars, tried to convince me it was just what I needed. It really wasn't.
I have now, really stupid looking with nothing very Gibson beyond the badge. Their Beatles one is even worse though to the level where each one should really come with a genuine waterboarded Hard Days Night in a North Korean prison but I guess that it's almost classy compared to most Beatles shite.

In my minds eye I see the Gibson and Beatles watch owner proudly showing off their new 'designer suit' with the label still on the cuff. They are showing you that they are still rock n roll at heart and might even spend sometime cornering you at the water cooler where they'll talk about their man cave with the Jack Daniels branded stools and the Marshall beer cooler and how they are thinking of buying a new red Mustang that they assure you will 'snap knicker elastic at 100 yards'.

I'm of the opinion that pretty much all cross branding in watches is awful. Even the less vomitorious ones like the Panerai Ferrari watches and the Aston Martin Jaeger-LeCoultre ones were less then the sum of their brands.

ALL guitar cross branded stuff is shite to the power ten and IMO all guitar merchandising is embarassing shit too. I know some folk liked the Fender VW's but those folk were merely flipflop wearers with no taste whatsover squared.

As with everything, less lifestyle shite, better product, is generally the way to get the job done.

D
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by wingnutkj » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:56 am

The blurb for the Les Paul watch is particularly tenuous (emphasis mine):
A free-spirited watch that breaks loose from conventional codes, RAYMOND WEIL pays its respects to a legend with a tribute to the fabled Les Paul Gibson guitar. Elegant, with a touch of rebellion, the freelancer is inspired by the “Gibson Les Paul” model and embodies its free spirit, rock attitude and unparalleled power of music. Its ebony perforated calf leather strap brings to mind the sound holes that are part of the body of a guitar. Asserting its character and confirming its prestigious soul, the “fittings” – tri-compax chronograph counters, date and strap topstitching – of the freelancer inspired by the “Gibson Les Paul” are set with golden highlights. The tempo of the watch is set by an RW5010 mechanical self-winding movement ensuring an approximately 46-hour power reserve. With only 400 numbered pieces available, this limited edition collector’s model is truly one-of-a-kind encased in an exclusive presentation box inspired by the famous Gibson guitar cases. With this watch the Swiss Brand strengthens its collaboration with Gibson Brands that began in 2015.

The body of the 43.5 mm case is made of steel and its tachymeter bezel is enhanced with black PVD coating inspired by the lacquer on the “Black Beauty” – a guitar renowned for its electrifying performance that continues to astound musicians all over the world. The board features circular guilloché motif featuring six chords studded by fret-shaped hour markers. At 12 o’clock, the names of the famous guitar manufacturer and the legendary Les Paul signature appear, while the split-diamond inlay – a distinctive feature of the Les Paul Custom shines in golden tones next to the date window.
So, it's black because some guitars are black, and the strap's got holes in it because some guitars (but not Les Pauls) have holes in them, and they couldn't quite figure out what to do with the split-diamond inlay, so they've stuck it at a random spot on the dial, and Gibson guitar cases are famous, apparently. It's a miracle they didn't give it a Bigsby-branded Panerai-style crown guard which has the sole effect of adding a few grams to the weight and causing the watch to loose or gain a few seconds whenever you touch it.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Despot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:59 am

shadowplay wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:09 am
I'm of the opinion that pretty much all cross branding in watches is awful. Even the less vomitorious ones like the Panerai Ferrari watches and the Aston Martin Jaeger-LeCoultre ones were less then the sum of their brands.

D
I feel bad for anyone who bought one of those Ferrari Panerais - especially now that Ferrari have cornered the market on low value branded tat, including watches. What a kick in the nuts to have spent thousands on a Ferrari watch that looks pretty much the same to most people as the newer quartz movement watches.

To take an iconic design like a Panerai, then to remove pretty much everything beautiful about that design ... that's just horrible.

Gibson guitars are also iconic designs. I'm on record here many times as saying that ES model guitars (particularly the ES335) are some of the most beautiful guitars ever made. On some level I wonder whether or not my interest in guitars was kicked off by the design of the things - I recall seeing ES guitars in the hands of old blues musicians on posters or in guitar magazines - the design lodged itself in my head before I'd ever started to learn how to play.

Gibson do still make some superb guitars - their Memphis made historic ES guitars are amazing instruments ... I've played a bunch of them and owned three over the years. They're not the same as a really good vintage ES but they're so close now that the price difference isn't justifiable in my view. The trouble is that they've decided to ignore the QC on the guitars that people can generally afford to buy - sure 4k euro for a historic ES is a lot of money, but they're aimed at folk who'll be also thinking about buying vintage for 3 or 4 times that price. A 4k ES335 isn't playing in the same ball park as a 2k ES335 or a 1500 euro Les Paul model. They're losing the custom of the average player who has saved up to buy a regular Gibson - the person who would never think about spending double or three times as much as their standard model on a historic reissue.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Despot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:03 am

Also ... just checked out the Raymond Weil Gibson watch. It's not my cup of tea. Even without the co-branding ... I'm not a fan of dials within dials (unless it's a small second hand dial). Given that the price point will also buy you a nice second hand Panerai, IWC or a nice new Tudor, it doesn't make any sense at all to me.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:58 am

I'm not smart enough to really know what Gibson's long term financial situation is and what changes will come. I like the company OK.

On the Gear Page, though, I've loosely participated in a thread about how can Rickenbacker stay in business, started since the original author of the thread has never seen a local band play a Rickenbacker so he figures that no one must be buying them at all.

A weak premise, but it does give one the chance to reflect on a company that is just quietly making guitars for sale at a medium price in an American factory like they've been doing for decades. They aren't trying to be a global company, they aren't trying to expand production of their instruments so that they can sell one at every level, there isn't a factory in dozens of nations.

It's pretty clear from both Gibson and Fender that the guitar market is incredibly oversaturated and will not really be able to support the companies that Gibson in particular perceives themselves to be.

If I have any hope for the future of the guitar, it's that these bubbles burst, and there is a large scale back to something much more closely approximating the Rickenbacker model. I think it's pretty inevitable. Gibson and Fender have been producing their products at a scale that would be more appropriate for something like beer or cell phones, items with a fixed life in which constant re-purchasing of the product is necessary.

But that's not true with guitars, so their current lineup in 2018 competes unsuccessfully with their lineup from 2014, which itself lost in the marketplace very often to their product in 2010 and so on. If your business model is predicated on the idea of constant expansion and growth like Gibson and Fender have done, that's going to lead to a product that is incredibly vulnerable to changing whims of the marketplace.

I mean, obviously the Les Paul has value and will always be made. Gibson will always be around in some form. Hopefully once the cruelties of the marketplace do what Gibson should have already done, we'll have a smaller, leaner company making very high quality- can you believe it?- guitars.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by InLimbo » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:27 am

Despot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:59 am
I feel bad for anyone who bought one of those Ferrari Panerais - especially now that Ferrari have cornered the market on low value branded tat, including watches. What a kick in the nuts to have spent thousands on a Ferrari watch that looks pretty much the same to most people as the newer quartz movement watches.
I ran across one of these behind the counter while my wife was buying some hair conditioner.

I was completely blown away (pun totally intented):

Image

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by smjenkins » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:22 am

budda12ax7 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:42 pm
you missed the gibson sg flying eagle for 8,000$
Don't forget that last $299. For reference, this is what that $8300 gets you:

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by higgsblossom » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:29 am

Despot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:59 am
They're losing the custom of the average player who has saved up to buy a regular Gibson - the person who would never think about spending double or three times as much as their standard model on a historic reissue.
But that's also true for Fender where I find more and more interesting "standard" models being made by Squier. Fender USA seems to be drifting towards awkward "special runs" and custom shop guitars.
"500€? That's the price of a J Mascis Jazzmaster!"

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:09 am

Here's an article with a link to some Gibson press releases I haven't read yet.

I'm still very much of the impression that this is hardly going to lead to bankruptcy proceedings. It seems that Gibson is just deeply overextended by trying to diversify themselves from only being depended on the contracting guitar market. And I think that Gibson bought Onkyo, or part of Onkyo? I love Onkyo stuff, but again in the 21st century the home entertainment system is also a contracting market. I don't now what Gibson is doing. Next they'll invest in some phrenology equipment makers, or butter churns.

So I'm a little skeptical of that diversification, since Gibson doesn't have an, uh, magic touch with products it buys. I would still say that Gibson should take a conservative approach and scale back to being a great guitar maker in the United States. But I know that capitalism demands otherwise. The machine must be fed constantly.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by burpgun » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:51 pm

Maybe bankruptcy would be good for Gibson. Clear out the debt and bad management and shear off all the stupid peripheral “branding” distractions. Perhaps the new owners will concentrate on the core business of making guitars, with a realization they are a million miles from being in a growth business. Just accept what the company is. They don’t have to be Playboy pushing the brand everywhere ‘cause no one reads the magazine anymore.

Given the cultural declines of guitars, I’m eternally shocked that the demand side can absorb this endless supply of guitars, regardless of who made them and what the cost.

I don’t know if this is true but a couple of years ago I got a personal tour of a major maker’s custom shop. The man giving the tour said he believed that the Leo Fender-era version of FMIC had essentially made all the guitars the world ever needed. Everything after that was just for fun, in a way. The only way I can wrap my head around the supply issue is seeing guys on another bass forum with dozens of basses and amps. Most don’t play out. It’s like a form of hoarding, and maybe these guys are the market now.

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