gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

For guitars of the straight waisted variety (or reverse offset).
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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by PixMix » Tue May 01, 2018 6:38 pm

^ I agree with this, especially with the comments regarding the "low end" models such as Melody makers, Juniors, Specials etc. I happen to have one of those faded doublecuts with P90s and it's an incredible instrument. Same thing with the Special, really great all-around, slab mahogany body, ebony fingerboard, relatively simple to make, and with some nice color choices it can be competitive in today's market of flat tops. They not only sound great but to me, both of these are more fun to play than the LP Standard, which btw has a really nice feel and super low action.

In the last 12 or so years, I have had seven Gibson guitars, I only bought one of them brand new. I currently have four (I sold the rest to buy offsets). I have had zero issues as far as quality control goes. In contrary, every one of them has had a super solid quality and feel. I would love to see Gibson go for a lean, simplified line of offerings with a strong focus on quality. In my opinion, some of the most consistently all-around good Les Pauls come from the '90s, and if Gibson can pull this off again, it will be all set.

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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by Mechanical Birds » Tue May 01, 2018 9:07 pm

stevejamsecono wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:58 pm
To answer the previous question, my "ideal" Gibson would be like this (and this probably won't happen):

Take the same route Fender did in the 80s, to a T. Sell the company back to players who care about the company. Reissue the 50s/60s Gibsons in a slimmed down lineup and at a reasonable competitive price point. Don't bother with modernizing them aside from potentially color choices. The fact that they haven't made more of a thing out of the Junior line in the last 10-15 years given the trends in guitar music is frankly astounding to me and I think it's a waste that they don't. If I could have bought a double cut LP Junior in the faded series circa 2005 or so I would have been thrilled and bought 6 of them.

Kill all the weird/special/experimental Gibsons because I don't know a soul who cares about these things or wants one.

Just do that, make good guitars for awhile, get them in the hands of new players, and take back your market share. Honestly, I think one of the reasons Reverend is killing it so much lately is they've really gotten into the hands of some awesome new talent.

To hear Gibson tell it their guitar market share is fine, otherwise I agree. My biggest annoyance was the goofy new colors - Shit looked wack. Maybe people liked them as I never really see complaints but I thought stuff like the 2016 standards looked really gross.

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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by PorkyPrimeCut » Tue May 01, 2018 11:01 pm

I'm really worried about the future of the SG Zoot Suit. Will it be discontinued? ;D
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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by mgeek » Tue May 01, 2018 11:37 pm

stevejamsecono wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:58 pm
Reissue the 50s/60s Gibsons in a slimmed down lineup and at a reasonable competitive price point. Don't bother with modernizing them
Totally...it's not hard to see this working very well. One type of Les Paul Standard + special + juniors one type of SG Standard + special + juniors, flying V like they looked in 1958, flying v like they looked in '68 etc...that's still a pretty massive range, and sums up what most people want from them.

The futuristic tuners etc...it's like Rolls Royce making a sports car and seems to come more from the position of 'capitalism = endless, mindless growth of market share' rather than 'let's be the best Gibson we can'.

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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by Despot » Tue May 01, 2018 11:50 pm

A couple of points - I think I've made these before on another thread, so apologies for the repetition.

1. Quality Control
I have to agree with Steven on this one Larry - as much as a lot of Gibsons I've tried have been perfect, there have been way more than can ever be considered acceptable at the price point that have had issues - acoustic neck angles always seem to be an issue (50/50 okay: shoddy ratio in my experience), as well as the dreaded 'hump' on single cut guitars where the neck meets the body that limits the ability to lower action - I've seen that a few times on new Gibsons. I would say that on their 'standard' line guitars they're ... okay. I can't accept orange peel in the finish on a guitar that costs 1,500 upwards new - you don't see this shit on Fenders - I can't ever recall seeing orange peel on a new nitro Fender, ever. Even if there are only 5% with these issues (and I'd argue it's at least that if not higher) that's the damage done right there - that's a significant enough number of shoddy guitars getting out into the market that will damage your reputation.

Compare that to the Memphis stuff - I have never ever picked up a new Memphis made guitar with issues. So in my mind it's quite simple Nashville/Montana factories: Meh, Memphis: awesome. That's how reputation works. It doesn't have to be real or accurate - it's market perception.

2. Unnecessary models.
As others have said - nobody ever asked for the fecking Firebird X. Or robot tuners. This was the hubris of an ego orientated CEO who decided he knew better than his customers. And they've paid for that.

I'd love to see a break down of their internal sales stats for the last 10 years. Surely somebody was moneyball-ing the hell out of this if they'd any sense and figuring out what sells and what doesn't. I find it hard to believe that puke green flame top Les Pauls were considered a better sell than a really well made Standard in gold top or cherry burst? All these 'innovations' were clearly designed to make people think "well, you mean your Les Paul doesn't have a zero fret and brass nut? Dude ... do you even Les Paul?" or whatever in some effort to drive sales. Clearly that didn't work.

If I was still in guitar buying mode there are two things that would appeal to me - a really well made Junior or Special with great sounding pickups, or historically accurate models of guitars that I love - the way Memphis have been nailing it with ES guitars. If Gibson made non-custom shop historic guitars they'd sell - and by that I mean 'standard' line guitars with historic correct parts - like they did a few years back when they brought out the SG with a sideways vibrola and maestro. Bring out a standard SG with maestro in Pelham Blue and I'd buy that. I still kick myself for not buying a Tweedy back when they were released... Price those models over the non-vintage spec for sure - but not custom shop prices. And make those suckers on a damn assembly line like the standard guitars. If you want hand made yadda yadda yadda ... custom shop. If not, this. Adopt the Fender pricing pyramid where historic models are not super crazy expensive and there's a distinct jump up between standard/historic-reissue and custom.

3. Henry J/CEO
He's got to go. I don't think he'll actually see that he has to, but he does. And he will be forced out.

4. Offshoring/aka The Coming Wilderness Years
You better believe that the administrators are already considering which factories in the Far East are going to start making Gibson guitars. These people are far from rocket scientists. I've worked with management consultants a lot in my own job (you name them, I've worked with them and found them lacking). They're effectively lazy - if the easiest solution to a problem is 'outsource/offshore' then that's what they'll do. Their logic is simple - close things that cost money, fire people that cost money, move production to a cheaper place - make profit. The wrapping that this logic comes in varies, and it'll surely be spun in a different way to folk ... but that's the mindset that you'll see at Gibson for the next decade I wager. And that mindset gives absolutely zero damns about whether or not these decisions cost US jobs. Not one.

Now ... I have no issue with guitars made in the far east - or anywhere - provided they're good. I've waxed lyrical a good few times about a Chinese made reissue '61 Casino I briefly owned that blew away custom shop Gibsons hanging in the same store - there was no competition ... that thing was an animal! Sure ... if you looked inside it you saw glue slop, and I never liked the feel of poly ... but it rang out. I'd still take that guitar any day over a mediocre ES330. So factories in the far east can make great guitars - and do.

5. Reduced footprint and expectations
Here it is though - the stinger ... Gibson is going to shrink. It's filed for bankruptcy ... so it's going to shrink. But it also has to - the demand isn't there. I don't care what Gibson themselves are saying ... I'm basing this on what I can see around me. 15 years ago in Dublin you had three large music stores in the city centre - all of which would have had racks of Gibsons. One of these, Waltons, had walls of Gibsons. You might know this store from that movie Once if you've seen it - it's the store that features in it. 15 years ago Waltons were doing a roaring trade. Last year Waltons store on George's Street, the one from the movie, shuttered. Rising rents were blamed - but that store had survived the boom years when rents were higher - but that was 2002-2008 when I think people were actually buying guitars more than they are now.

When I go into the two remaining 'main' stores in Dublin what I see now are Fenders - mostly Mexican made Fenders. You'll have some Am Pro and one or two American Originals - but the lion's share are Fenders made in Mexico or China, as well as Squier. Gibsons account for maybe a handful of standard models hanging behind the counter - the 'expensive' stuff. A lot of this is due to Gibson themselves and how they changed their distribution model for Europe (the main distributor for Europe is in The Netherlands I believe) as well as online stores like Thomann - but it does mean that when a kid who's starting out playing guitars goes into a store to buy his first - that's what he sees - Fender guitars (or Fender's other companies like Gretsch) wall to wall. That's got to have some sort of an impact.

As I've said before the thing I'm most sorry about is knowing that Memphis is doomed in this reshape - they make some super quality guitars. I'm glad I picked up that ES345 when I did - even if Memphis survives in some form the bean counters will be in charge again - there'll be no more time consuming/old ways of making ES guitars - they'll find a way to accelerate it. Parts will become cheaper again, and quality will be hard to maintain. As Larry has said ... in a weird way guitars from the last 20 years will come to be seen as a high water mark when we compare them to what is bound to come. Especially Memphis made guitars - what they've done since 2011 in trying to get as close as possible to the vintage models has largely worked - I don't think Gibson have ever made finer ES guitars than they do now since 1965.

Overall
I take no joy in Gibson's bankruptcy - and I hope that the company survives in a shape that we actually recognise as 'Gibson' in the future. So much of the music that I listen to has been written and played on Gibson guitars - hell ... I've played every type of acoustic under the sun, but none of them sounded right until I found my old J45 - it was simply the sound I knew from so many records.

A final note - if you're thinking of buying a new Gibson ... do it soon. I expect that there may be some sorts of sale/blow outs coming down the line before the 'new/improved' beancounter led shit comes along. I would also especially urge anyone who is thinking of getting an ES guitar to do so now - those are expensive and time consuming to make ... so Memphis will fall first.

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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by jthomas » Wed May 02, 2018 3:32 am


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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by rhythmjones » Wed May 02, 2018 5:13 am

Gibson gets a lot of flak for quality control but, other than the robot tuners which break at an incredibly high rate, their quality is excellent. Their reputation is proceeding them and it is unwarranted. All the stuff coming from Bozeman, Memphis and the Custom Shop are superb, it's the USA stuff that's a little more questionable but even that is still pretty good.

It's the stupid design ideas like robot tuners, (Which I'm not against in principle but the tech just isn't there yet) Firebird X etc that are the real trouble IMHO. Gibson is a legacy brand and should focus on their legacy guitars. There was a time where if you wanted a Les Paul with vintage specs your choices were Epiphone or Custom Shop and it should never be that way.

My other problem with Gibson is their pricing model. There's no way that a USA made Les Paul should run for 4 times what a USA made Strat runs for, and that's not even getting into the Custom Shop prices which are higher than most boutique builders. Henry tried to force a veblen effect onto them where, IMHO, it's really not deserved. Gibson guitars are nice but they're mass produced by a company who can take advantage of economies of scale. They can be more competitive with their prices.

My boss said Henry will be staying on as a consultant for 1 year then he's out. Can anyone confirm this?
- Mitch

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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by Despot » Wed May 02, 2018 5:31 am

I have to disagree with you on the Bozeman stuff rhythmjones - in my personal experience it's been quite hit and miss. Mostly neck angles. I agree with you on the other factories though - my main gripe with the Made In USA/Standard models has been cosmetic issues rather than structural/playability issues.

Gibsons were never going to become Veblen goods - and trying to make them more desirable through raising the price isn't something that should ever have made sense in musical instruments. I'm guessing on this one, but I'd wager that the core buyers of Gibsons are largely musicians - whether professional or amateur ... folk who want to play music. The segment that might have been open to the veblen effect would be those who were open to it in other products - the folk who would buy an expensive imported car purely on the basis that it provided them with a sheen of exclusivity or success. You've got a large enough portion of society who will buy into that shit across all demographics when it comes to stuff that all of us use (cars, clothes etc). But that doesn't work when you skew the demographics to musicians - you're talking about a very small proportion of the that cohort who would be susceptable to this nonsense, and that cohort isn't going to be your sales cash cow.

Fender's pricing model is far better - they seem to understand what they're doing in terms of segmenting their market and providing a differentiated price structure. Fender don't rely on their custom shop (their highest end or closest to veblen goods) to drive their overall profitability - they expect their profit to come from mass sales.

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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by Larry Mal » Wed May 02, 2018 6:08 am

Well, Gibson has tried to monetize the Les Paul to such a degree that everyone can afford one, with those who can pay more hopefully paying more.

A Les Paul Studio- I own one from '93 I think- is arguably all the Les Paul that anyone really needs, of course, if you can pay more they'll outfit it differently and so on. It's trim after a point.

And of course there are cheaper versions of the Les Paul even than the Studio, all of which would really do about the same thing as any other Les Paul in the end. But adding value to things is pretty hard.

But you know the point of the Boogie Van Les Paul and the Dusk Tiger and shit isn't to sell those guitars, right? It gets Gibson's name in the press. People talk about those instruments at a level that they aren't going to talk about the Les Paul Studio- "How's the Studio?" "Still good." "Oh."

Not much there. Sadly, if Gibson's goal is to get their name in the press, they've just succeeded wildly.

And the robot tuners to me really shows the limitations of bolting new technology onto old technology more than anything else. Like, if you wanted to design a guitar that tuned itself automatically and multiple tunings quickly was the goal, then what Gibson did is a cumbersome design that you'd likely not arrive at if you started from fresh.

But that's the problem. Gibson seems to be under the impression that people want innovation in the electric guitar these days and they don't. That's a fundamental disconnect between seller and consumer and that rarely works out in the marketplace for long.

Like me, I talk a bunch of shit about how the Firebird X should give Gibson some respect for trying to do something different, but then again, I'd never buy one. I could have, you know? But everything I buy is a representation to some degree or another of a classic guitar design and I have little to no inclination to change that.

So who is Gibson innovating for? The kids of today will grow up watching people playing the same guitar designs and so they'll want those too, same as I did. People have pointed out, no one expects innovation with the violin, or the saxophone, or the tuba. I don't think that people really expect much from the electric guitar either, since when you think of an electric guitar, you are almost certainly thinking of a sound that already exists. What else can you do?
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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by shadowplay » Wed May 02, 2018 6:12 am

The thing about Gibson that's most glaringly obvious to me is their change in philosophy over their golden years. Back then they were the epitome of good albeit conservative taste for a pretty conservative supper club set of musicans. They didn't set out to design guitars for rock pigs (or wanky Franklin Mint collector types) they merely made quality tools that found their way in that direction. If you look back at Gibson in the 50's and 60's they rarely put an aesthetic foot wrong but recently they shit the bed repeatedly, it's embarassing really. In a nutshell you should at least have some sort of understanding what a brand means, stands for or signifies and I currently lack that with Gibson.

They fail to understand that any so called rebellious or outsider cultural items tend not to come from conscious design (or marketing :D ) but from appropriation of existing design outside of it's original context and often outside the widest dream of the designer. You can see this in the biker jacket's development from something for male motorcylists inspired by military wear, to something for rebel motorcyclists, to a male rock star item and signifier of a wrong un, to a unisex rockstar item, to a teenage girl jacket and onto a fashion item for fashionable women who'll never see 35 again and now fully female outside the dressing up like a greaser rock steady crew. You just can't design this, it has to be adopted and reappropriated.

Epiphone is even worse in a lot of ways they way it chases the upside down cross set and that sort of rhubarb.

For me Fender have been fine custodians of Gretsch, I don't like everything they do but they have their heart in the right place.

D
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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by ThePearDream » Wed May 02, 2018 6:59 am

I've never owned a Gibson myself, nor ever really wanted to, so I can't add anything to the excellent points already made. But, I've been thinking about the balance between tradition and innovation, and I see no reason that Gibson (or Fender) can't have both. They just need to approach things differently. I think where they go wrong in regards to innovation is by not embracing new models of marketing and selling. You know, releasing products the old way, devoting tons of time and capital to development, marketing and manufacturing something that may or may not be a hit.

As others have said, they should have a streamlined stable of standard offerings that they know will sell. But anything else (weird shapes, different finishes, etc.) could be sold through a Kickstarter type of model. This would allow them to gauge actual interest and raise real capital towards manufacturing those new offerings. Even more importantly, it would prevent them from wasting huge amounts of money manufacturing say, lime green, Floyd Rose equipped Les Pauls - unless however many sales are required to turn a profit are guaranteed. This definitely goes for Fender too. There is no good reason for $2000 Jaguar strat mashups to be sitting in warehouses, waiting for someone to buy them, no matter how limited the run is.
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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by MrFingers » Wed May 02, 2018 7:27 am

Image

WUT?!?

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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by Despot » Wed May 02, 2018 7:41 am

Well let's see if it's legit first.

I'm not a fan of Bonamassa's music, but I will say this for the guy - he loves vintage guitars. In the same sort of way that those of us here on OSG love offsets. I could think of worse people getting involved with Gibson to turn them around.

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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by Larry Mal » Wed May 02, 2018 7:49 am

I don't think he would farm out the instruments to Indonesia, I'll say that.

And judging from the signature models he's had done, he would do a pretty good job. Everyone loves the actual Alnico 2 pickups he put on his Epiphone Firebird, for instance, which I would actually probably have preferred over the ceramic pickups that Gibson put in the Firebird (since replaced with Alnico 5s).

I think this is a long shot, but who knows.

I mean, for one, Gibson is planning to re-organize their debts around the current business leadership and that will probably be successful. It's not like they are dissolving or up for sale or anything, although anything is possible.
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Re: gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by DesmondWafers » Wed May 02, 2018 7:49 am

I had the same thoughts. I don't think I could sit through an entire Boner-smasher song, but the man obviously has a deep passion for guitars and Gibson desperately needs someone that has insight into what guitar players actually want.

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