gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

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s_mcsleazy
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gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

Post by s_mcsleazy » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:52 pm

so gibson guitars are hemorrhaging money at the moment, they are in a great deal of debt, their product re-designs were considered a failure, quality control is down, complaints of poor management, uncaring A & R reps and now
https://reverb.com/uk/news/gibson-set-t ... ar-factory

now let's discuss.
Last edited by s_mcsleazy on Tue May 01, 2018 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by TeenageShutdown! » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:51 pm

Damn, everywhere I look music related I’m seeing this. $500 million + debt, has Gibson become the new Sears?
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by mackerelmint » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:50 pm

They've been trying so hard for so long to go out of business, maybe they'll finally succeed.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by dylanafghjkl » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:58 pm

on one hand, it's kinda scary knowing that even a company as well known and "regarded" as gibson can go down like anyone else

on the other hand, hahaha eat shit gibson

on another hand all together, electric guitar sales are down from big companies across the board, everyone is buying used or boutique (at least in australia where why bother paying $3000 for a fender that's just okay where you can pay slightly more for a vintage fender or for a bespoke instrument)

on another another hand, hey, signs of capitalism crumbling are good signs regardless

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by spacecadet » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:59 pm

I don't know that Fender is doing much better. Which is why they too seem to be flailing a bit with new guitar designs and updates to previous designs, trying to throw stuff at the wall to see if anything sticks.

It's a bad time in the industry. I think the real problem is what passes for pop music these days.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Embenny » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:00 pm

They're just in another "dark era" of poor management. They'll look back on this as the second coming of Norlin.

I've never been a Gibson guy, but I am a "music history" guy, and they have so many iconic designs that it's sad to see this happening. I hope they survive and restructure/are bought by someone with better vision.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by mekhem » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:23 pm

I read this yesterday - about the sale of the Memphis factory - and was a little sad.

I own a Memphis 345 and its really magnificent. I have played some other 335/345/355's made there that were also really great. I have had a chance to tour that Memphis factory and see "how the sausage gets made" so to speak and i was very impressed. The key bits are all hand made or better said - hand finished - and there is a lot of the hand finishing going on there. That process is going to lead to some variance in the end result which some people complain about. Its a really nice facility and there are a great many worse ways to spend 10 Bucks.

That said - I highly doubt Gibson's issues are solely due to the current state of the market. Exacerbated surely - but Gibson and H.J. could pound out the Les Pauls Standards and 335's at moderate pricing levels and make a very nice living. Anyway.... there is a lot of material here about the "why" of the current Gibson....

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:45 pm

Jesus. Gibson has three plants, not counting all the ones that are Epiphone. The three Gibson ones are in Bozeman, Montana, where the acoustics are made. The second one is in Memphis, where they make the semi-hollow instruments and the hollowbodied ones.

The big one is in Nashville, where they make the solid-body instruments.

The Memphis facility is a very large facility that has more than half of its space set aside as a performance venue- a concert hall. This venue hasn't been used in years and probably never was a money-maker. It's also on prime real estate that became a lot more valuable since Gibson has owned it, so they've made money on the investment of the square footage alone.

It makes no sense for Gibson, who is in fact saddled with a lot of debt and does need some business restructuring, to keep maintaining a huge facility on very expensive and valuable land, more than half of which isn't producing anything that the company can sell.

I don't pretend to know the details of Gibson's finances, but the sale of this property hardly equals "Gibson going under".
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Squirrel » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:16 am

Jesus christ, the comments section of that article. :k

Seriously though, I've been rooting for Gibson to go under for fucking ages now but I doubt it'll actually happen. Or if it does happen it won't be for long as someone will just buy the name and the cycle will start anew.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by pocaloc » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:36 am

Gibson doesn't seem to know what's cool about their guitars, at least on the electric side. They either make cheap guitars for the masses or unreachable price points on triple AAA flame guitars that only wealthy people can afford. Nothing in between. Fender does a good job at hitting all price points in my opinion.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by zhivago » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:10 am

I really don't think that Gibson is going under.

Eventually the debt will be re-structured, they will keep their core brands (Gibson and Epiphone), probably shed all the other aspects of the business they expanded into (all that electronics stuff) and carry on in one shape or another.

Sure, they may even be sold onto someone else at some point, but I doubt that the Gibson name will disappear.

Also, selling the Memphis factory (and relocating it btw), is hardly going to cover any of the debt they owe. I don't think that is a sign of going under. Downsizing? Probably. They were on three day weeks, or so I heard, which to me probably has something to do with the over-saturation of new guitars in the market.

There's just too many guitars out there. New and used.

For an interesting view on that, George Gruhn's interview here has some good points:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Q9xMtlekU
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Embenny » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:15 am

Squirrel wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:16 am
Jesus christ, the comments section of that article. :k
Yeah, I guess I didn't realize what the demographics of Reverb really were. "These kids today don't have rock stars to look up to like Sammy Hagar anymore!" :fp:
pocaloc wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:36 am
Gibson doesn't seem to know what's cool about their guitars, at least on the electric side. They either make cheap guitars for the masses or unreachable price points on triple AAA flame guitars that only wealthy people can afford. Nothing in between. Fender does a good job at hitting all price points in my opinion.
I also agree with this. They seem to have a higher proportion of their models at Fender Custom Shop prices. Part of this seems to be an unwillingness to stamp the Gibson logo on something made outside the USA. There have been MIJ, MIM and MIC Fenders, but if it's got a Gibson design and is made outside the USA, it's got an Epiphone logo on it. Epiphones also reach into the 4-figure range, which covers most of the MIM and even MIJ Fenders.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by GarryG » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:07 am

I love my 2001 & 2003 custom shop Les Paul Class 5 model stunning Quilt and Flame top guitars but, I bought them used in mint condition for a fraction of the original price. My wife also surprised me with a brand new 2013 50s Tribute SG from Musiciansfriend for under $600. tax included that ended up being a pretty good guitar after my modifications. Great surprise birthday present from a great wife !
Gibson buyers are a big part of the problem because they are fixated on the '59 flame tops and every time Gibson tries to come out with something new or different, they get slammed. I recently bought / stole a 2015 LP Traditional Sprint Run (only 202 made in HCS finish & standard neck width and no robo-tuners) from Guitar Center still brand new with very heavy flame top and numerous great features like adjustable nut, no weight relief etc. (No cash, just traded gear that I only had $1,070. invested and they were thrilled to sell it.) All the Gibson "experts" only focused on the "ugly 2015 Les Paul 100 signature on the headstock". How can Gibson make any progress with this bias toward '59 Flametop original features. With that thinking, we would never have gotten the Les Paul models in the first place, much less the ES 335 etc. There are tons of fantastic new guitar makers out there and lots of new and used guitars available so the competition is at its greatest. Hopefully guitars won't go the way of the accordion !

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by kdanie » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:30 am

I'll toss in my 2 cents on this... It's not just Gibson but ALL guitar makers are struggling. Here's what I see. Guitar enthusiasts "think" they want new designs and innovation but they balk at NEW. Look at headless guitars, ergonomic guitars, robotuners, and every other "innovation", all kicked to the curb by "guitar" enthusiasts. What they really want (spend their $$ on) is what they've always had only CHEAPER. I suspect Gibson will either go under or downsize significantly focusing on high end limited edition guitars, same for Fender. There is no profit margin on guitars for the masses (the "mass" market is shrinking too).

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by sookwinder » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:57 am

What I do find interesting, and maybe indicative of the problem, is that in their acoustics range the cost essentially the same as an actual guitar version of the same model.
For example: J45s
Prices seem to be US$2K - US$4.5k for what is essentially the "workhorse" version from the 60s
That's what a vintage one from the 60s will cost

Why would anyone buy new when they can get a vintage one for the same ball park price :fp:
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