gibson bankruptcy discussion thread

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StevenO
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by StevenO » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:11 am

sookwinder wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:57 am
What I do find interesting, and maybe indicative of the problem, is that in their acoustics range the cost essentially the same as an actual guitar version of the same model.
For example: J45s
Prices seem to be US$2K - US$4.5k for what is essentially the "workhorse" version from the 60s
That's what a vintage one from the 60s will cost

Why would anyone buy new when they can get a vintage one for the same ball park price :fp:
This is exactly it.

Their new stuff is OKAY in quality, but you can buy a decent-to-great vintage version for the same or less money. And you'll get something that will only go up in value.

I've even played a couple of new Gibson acoustics that seemed like they needed a neck reset or at the very least a fret levelling/plaining, right from the factory. :wtf:

Even if you were dead set on a brand new, unplayed instrument, there are so many brands out there doing what Gibson is doing except way better that there really isn't any good reason to buy from Gibson.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Grey » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:56 am

A lot of what I could say about this has already been said here. What I will add is that people tend to forget Gibson was on the verge of going into receivership when Juszkiewicz bought the company. If you've liked anything they've done since 1986 it's because he (and a group of investors) bought the company and turned it around, and while that formula might not be working as well 30+ years after the fact, this is hardly new territory for Gibson.

People are quick to wax nostalgic and point to the decline of rock music and young guitarists because it supports their worldview. Gibson's problems, in my opinion, have less to do with their guitar business and more to do with their recent focus of trying to become a "lifestyle" brand by snatching up numerous smaller (but well known) companies and trying to integrate the Gibson brand into them. To name just a few, Philips, KRK, Stanton, TEAC, and Onkyo, all of which it snatched up within the last ~5-6 years.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Despot » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:07 am

It's sad to read that Gibson's Memphis plant is going - as much as it's sad for those who work for that plant, it's bad from a guitar stand point as the instruments that have been made there in the last few years are, without doubt, the best guitars Gibson has made since the McCarthy years.

Really you say? Isn't that a bit BS-y?

Nope.

I've owned a few vintage Gibsons and I've owned a few modern Gibsons. I sold a vintage 1965 ES330 because the Memphis made '59 reissue ES330 was just such an incredible instrument that it was actually a better guitar in every way compared to the '65 (and that was, by the way, a really good '65). Similarly their ES345 and ES335 reissues (I've played both) are as close to really good vintage examples as they can currently make - their Memphis Historic Spec humbuckers are also damn close to vintage PAFs.

In short, when you think of Gibson and crappy QC know that it has been Memphis that has been going the other way - making exceptionally high end instruments that are as close as you can get to vintage. Now ... when it comes to ES330s the finances don't make sense - a reissue costs about 4k. As it happens I was able to pick up a 1962 ES330 recently for around the same price - when vintage and reissue are the same price, the pricing is wrong. On the other hand a reissue ES335 is significantly cheaper than a vintage dot neck ... so there the finances do make sense (albeit paying that sort of money for any modern/new guitar is tough to handle).

I've never met the guys at Memphis, but I can tell from what they've been making for years that they truly do care about what they're doing and the instruments they've been putting out certainly back that up. Will the models being made in Memphis be made to the same exacting QC standards in another plant? Time will tell... but I doubt it.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Arthon » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:16 am

My Memphis made Es-175 is a very good guitar. In a egoist point of view, the closing of the Memphis plant is a good thing for the value of my guitar. The Memphis guitar are well regarded; the value of those guitars will probably go up...

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Last edited by Arthon on Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Despot » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:46 am

I don't know ... the Memphis hollow/semi guitars are pretty expensive already.

Compare them to Nashville custom shop ES models (which are also held in high regard over the old production line models that were around at the time) - there's a slight up-charge for a historic Nashville ES335 over a non-historic production line ... but not much.

Actually the Nashville custom shop ES models were pretty good guitars too - not quite on the same level as the recent Memphis stuff ... but I have a '59 reissue from the Nashville CS and it's a fantastic guitar

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:49 am

Why is everyone under the belief that Gibson is just closing the Memphis factory? Everything I've seen stated says that they are just selling the facility, and moving operations to a smaller facility still in Memphis. Is that not correct?

I like all my Gibsons, frankly. I have never seen what the so called quality problems are. The bridges and hardware is ghastly but the rest of the guitars are good if not great. I've never felt disappointed by any of my Gibsons.

Some of them, like my Firebird and my ES-330, and guitars that I would say are as good as an electric guitar can get.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Arthon » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:58 am

Despot wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:46 am
I don't know ... the Memphis hollow/semi guitars are pretty expensive already.

Compare them to Nashville custom shop ES models (which are also held in high regard over the old production line models that were around at the time) - there's a slight up-charge for a historic Nashville ES335 over a non-historic production line ... but not much.

Actually the Nashville custom shop ES models were pretty good guitars too - not quite on the same level as the recent Memphis stuff ... but I have a '59 reissue from the Nashville CS and it's a fantastic guitar
Will see... but I think they are more chance that the end of Memphis guitar production will raise their value then the opposite.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:31 pm

I'm interested to hear the answer to Larry's question.

I don't think Gibson guitars will ever die. At least probably not in my lifetime.

I do seem to think that the guitar market is in a weird state of flux though. As others have mentioned, there are just so many guitars floating around nowadays. Guitars typically last a while. So there isn't a shortage. The internet age has also played a huge role. All of the rocks are being overturned and guitars that wouldn't have fetched much 20 years ago are now going for thousands due to either hype or legitimate crafstmanship. Either way, sites like reverb have a lot of control and sway over the market.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Snake Hips » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:36 am

The brand has a lot of worth to it, however, with the general quality of their sub $700 - $2,400 guitars is really not there. A company will probably buy them out. Here is a big difference the market of boutique builders in the last 20 years has grown a lot. For ~$1500+ you can get started on a customer guitar all hand made. I can pick my neck shape to finish etc etc. Gibson can not offer that and they can't offer that quality.

What I would like Gibson to start doing is dial back their sub-lines stick to their original format. Have just a jr, special, standard, classic , deluxe, custom. Have this format for their main line LP, SG, Firebird, Explorer, and most ES models (which at this point is really a 335). If you need more variation offer 50s neck and 60s neck (or modern C). Create Epiphone USA making Casinos, Sheraton, and Wilshire. As this grows offer a yearly addition for NAMM continue custom shop that is more than just Slash one offs.

The next big change. Take ownership of your import strategy. Brand it as Gibson import and put Gibson headstocks on your Epiphone line. I do not think I am in the few but when I see Epiphone LP or SG the headstock looks off and would never buy. Epiphone LP/SG and maybe the Dot would be rebranded and new headstock for Gibson no longer Epiphone ( these are iconic Gibson styles). With this Gibson just opened their line to have a brand that goes from entry level - Custom Shop for both Gibson and Epiphone non competing styles. My vision is the same thing that Fender did with Squier and Gretsch with imports having the same headstock and at times the same logo. I would think Fender sells a lot more offsets on their lower lines then their American line.

Get these in players hands. If Gibson did this import strategy more and more players would buy these, meaning the next time you saw a local show you could see the now Gibson rebranded Epiphone LP on stage. Some kid is going to start playing guitar because of seeing that band, buy a guitar that looks like that local guitarist and you now have a stronger brand.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Mike S » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:40 am

The illegal wood smuggling, the insane ranting right wing CEO, treating employees like shit, price inflation, the auto-tuner scandal, shoddy building...

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by danbind » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:57 am

I've been to the Memphis plant. It is cattycorner from the Memphis Forum, where the NBA Grizzlies play (i saw Tom Petty there last spring), a block off Beale Street. It is a CAVERNOUS place, much larger than it needs to be--there is a performance space there that doesnt get much use. Plenty of empty real estate all around--downtown Memphis isn't quite as thriving as it could be. So I could see how they feel they could save a few bucks by moving.

What I fear is that Gibson HQ will just consolidate the whole operation up the road three hours in Nashville. That would be a very Nashville thing to do to a Memphis enterprise.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Mike S » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:51 pm

Could they build some good will by re-releasing the 1965 version of the Kalamazoo (preferably in both orientations) or would Fender sue them into bankruptcy?

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Mad-Mike » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:13 pm

Gibson going under is not much of a surprise to me, they have made badly executed decisions on half baked ideas (robot tuners, strange new models that serve no rhyme, reason, or purpose but to be different, and generally not listening to their own fanbase).

Let's hypothetically say if someone just dropped Gibson guitar in my lap tomorrow....what would I do? Granted I'm not a businessman, this Is just close to something like a strategy I think would work for them.

First off, I think moving factories would be the right move when you only use 1/4 of your factory space for something productive. Have all the high dollar guitars made in Nashville or Memphis or wherever we could move the factory to without affecting the jobs of the workers too much.

Then streamline the product lines! No more 30 versions of a Les Paul, no more 20 versions of an SG - just their old, original, best variations that people want, and then change them every few years or so - that's what it seems Fender does to a degree and it's working for them - we had 15 years of 62' AVRI Jaguar - now it's time for the Transitional "65'" era to shine for a bit. So maybe one year we'll make a pile of 59's - then line our signature models up with that too - ie, we'll do a Pearly Gates Les Paul that year, and a Jimi Page 59', or maybe repro Billy Squier's.......There's a lot to be said about being smart with what and how one puts something out there. Then maybe the next year we'll do a 73' and Ocasek will give us his blessing to make a clone of his black pinstripe SG in a limited number? Maybe we'll do 76's and copy Ace Freshley's Les PAul complete with a smoker setup package - if you're going to do something ridiculous - do something people want, like a Les Paul like Ace's that has that crazy feature.

Now let's talk marketing. Trash that lifestyle B.S. - Gibson is a GUITAR MAKER. Slash, Paul Dean, Ace Freshley, Joe Walsh, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Michael Shenker, JAmes Hetfield, Chuck Berry, Ted Nugent, The Tielmen Bros, George Kooeymans, Frank Zappa, Eddie Van-Halen, Les Paul, Charlie Christian - that's a widely diverse roster of people who played their guitars, and that's just the famous ones from all over - not even the regular joe shmoes. I get the feeling Gibson tries really hard to be the... the real authentic leather clad biker Amerka' Fuk' Year'Mr. Moustache bro-fisting type brand of guitar sometimes, and that lifestyle crap needs to stop. It's actually a bit off-putting to think if I pick up a Gibson Byrdland because I like short scales people are going to immediately think "Ted Nugent" instead of "he's playing some cool sounding stuff".

Focus should be less on being the "most expensive/prestigous" brand, and more on being a quality brand that has what people want. When people go to a Gibson, typically they want a guitar that sounds like one. But when the only people that can afford your guitars with the actual big name brand on them are the all-stars above - of course fewer people are going to buy them. You can buy a name-brand Fender guitar for around $350-600 brand new off the rack - like the Offset Series, Quite a few Strat/Tele variants, and even some are US made, at least in part. But Gibson tends to sit around $700 at the lowest I've seen new unless it's a closeout on a model that they can't get rid of at Guitar Center.

And they need to dump the brands or start managing them better. Kramer is f***ing abysmal. What I would have done is brought back the line as it was in the 80's.... STRIKER = Korean/Cortek/Squier Affinity level guitars, FOCUS = Japanese Made Kramers, then the Pacer, Beretta, Condor, and others would be American made, maybe in the same factory as the Gibson stuff to try and lure in people who like Fender style instruments. Forget Eddie Van-Halen - he's got his own company now, Ritchie Sambora - irrelevant. Instead, try and get Satchel from Steel Panther or Nikkita from Alice Coopers' band. Try and draw back some old 80's clients without endorsement deals or sig models - bring some of the old ones back, and make new ones. What Kramer is now does not fit the "vintage hot rod gone 80's" Image they had, hence being just sort of there but not often talked about. If they want to do something new....make a Jaguar or Jazzmaster with a Floyd Rose and SSH setup and a banana headstock neck.

And that's just some of my ideas. I'm not a businessman or a expert by any stretch, but this is what I think based off what I've seen other companies doing and what works for them. When your main big brand is USA only, and nobody whose not a rockstar can afford one first hand, then you're going to lose business. People need to feel like there's at least a foothold somewhere to keep the door open. A foothold they don't need to tip the foothold attendant to stand on.

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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:37 pm

I think it might be even simpler than all of that. Frankly, the guitar seems to be waning in popularity, and that's to be expected. Gibson mainly seems to be only positioned to expand and expand and expand, but they have a ton of competition in an incredibly saturated market, selling a product that is on the wane. What would anyone expect to happen?

I would predict that a lot of smaller guitar making companies will die off and the big name players will continue even if they have to cut back a bit. I don't really know how many more guitars can be sold at all the different price points. If everyone in the world who wants a guitar doesn't already have one, then there's exactly what they want already out there easily procured and used, for a lot less than new.

As someone mentioned earlier, Gibson's competition is used Gibson. The electric guitar is such an easy to manufacture instrument that there is a glut out there... the market will correct for that, and it is.
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Re: gibson going under.

Post by Despot » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:20 am

100% right Larry - new Gibsons are competing with old Gibsons.

This has been exacerbated by Gibson raising their prices. A new '59 reissue ES330 costs about 4,200 euro at the moment. They're great guitars for sure (seriously - the Memphis stuff is really really good, even compared to good vintage), but right now in Dublin there's a '65 ES330 that I used to own for sale for around that price (it would probably sell for 4k or less), a '67 in great condition for a good bit less and the '62 that I picked up (also for less).

As great as the new Memphis historic stuff is, it's going to depreciate right from the moment you walk out of the store. The vintage stuff should at least hold it's value (well - Baby Boomer Death Guitar Market Flood notwithstanding down the line). Sure you get crappy vintage guitars - I'd say the best thing about the current Memphis historic stuff is consistency - but if you can find a good one why would you buy a new reissue over a vintage model?

Acoustics are an even better example - you'll still be able to find a beaten J50 from the late '50s for around 3,500 euro. A new True Vintage J45 will run you at least 3,000 at the moment. And as others have said, with new Gibsons ... for whatever reason ... I've seen so many issues with neck angles on acoustics. An old J45 or J50 will likely have had a neck reset (or the price of a reset factored in to the sellers price if needed). Plus there's no faking 60 years of use on an acoustic in terms of how it sounds - I've owned two old J50s over the years, and new Gibsons don't compare. I currently own a True Vintage J45 - which I got because I loved how it sounds ... but it doesn't sound like the old '57 or '52 that I had. It's a great guitar (and for some reason much better than others I've tried down through the years) ... but it's not the same.

As Sookwinder said on acoustics ... why the hell would you buy a new Gibson over an old one?

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