NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

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Despot
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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by Despot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:29 am

zhivago wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:26 pm

Best of luck with finding your dream place Kev...a handful of nice guitars to put in there is a true blessing.
Thanks Yannis. I know you're in the same boat too ... good luck with that!

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by Despot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:32 am

Telliot wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:19 pm
I agree with David, that was really unnecessary.

Firstly, it’s his post about his guitar. What the fuck does it have to do with you?

Secondly, it’s everything to do with guitars! Most of us have had to make choices like this, sometimes it’s buying a house, sometimes it’s hospital bills. Again, what is it to you?
Thanks Todd - but to be fair to mgeek I probably hadn't considered how that would read (and really should have) ... I was really just looking for people's thoughts and a bit of a kick to help me make up my mind.

I know you've been in the same place over the years with stuff and I guess if I was in your shoes with kids added into the mix I wouldn't even be having this conversation - the stuff would just be gone.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by shadowplay » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:52 am

^^^

You know your background isn't far from mine; first at University, no family financial help and a real struggle to buy a house (though on the positive side I'm lucky to live where there's no charge for University tuition...even today). Like you I had to set aside things, first to buy my first flat pretty young, which had me literally on the potato diet and then just not buying any guitar gear for years and years while I tried to get a safe financial position for my kids.

Something I notice on here is a certain attitude to 'nice things', you're almost guaranteed a longer thread on some common guitar available in any shop than something old and classic, even if the common guitar thread has a photo taken through the bottom of a jam jar. Then there's the persistant reference to rich kids and the like.

It's probably the same with cars too, where you'll get pages of folk declaring some Toyota is cool, which must make life exhausting because I'd imagine this means everything is awesome and walking down the high street must be a thrill a minute experience.

What really worries me is that folk with nice things might start to pause before posting, lest they look like they are showing off and not sharing both their good fortune but a beautiful artefact that we can all enjoy. My Mrs hates me posting photos of possessions, she tells me to stop and rags me about it but if everyone went down that road OSG would as well rename itself as Offsetguitarbridges.com. I don't think it's insensitive, or crass, especially when most of the people in here with collections of gorgeous vintage instruments seem to display social awareness.

I'm not sure mgeek was on this tip but it's still been something I've thought about.

Speaking personally my tastes have never changed with my financial circumstances, I wanted old coachbuilt classic Italian cars and a pre war Martin dreadnought when I was potless and homeless and I still want them now and even if I could never get even close, I'd still be glad someone managed to get there.


D
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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by Despot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:06 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I know what you mean D - but I've always operated from a sort of 'fair play to them' point of view on stuff that I know I'll never be able to afford. Your Ghibli is a case in point - I've neither the finances or expertise to be able to do what you did with that car. But I understand how you did it - I seldom post on the car thread, but I do follow it (and I've learned a hell of a lot from it - as I do from most of the off-topic threads). I think your addiction to cars and mine with guitars were funded in similar ways - I've been buying and selling stuff since I was 15. I make a few quid here, try not to lose my head over something so that I overpay for it (though it does happen - because it is an obsession after all) and over time ... a long long period of time ... I've put myself into a place where I've been able to get stuff that I never thought I'd have.

The most money I've ever spent on a guitar outright was on my Jazzmaster. And it meant potato diet for two months - in my case literally. I don't regret it - that guitar is like an extension of my hands - but it didn't come easy. I sold gear and emptied my current account to get it. And I will never be comfortable spending that much money outright on a guitar again.

Everything else has been trading up. A trade with a small bit of cash ... that's been how I've managed to build this stuff up. And it was ALWAYS intended as a form of saving - it stopped me feeling like I wasn't living life while saving all these years. And if I was staying in at weekends to save up money for the eventual house buying ... I was also sitting down listening to music playing an old ES335 or Jaguar or whatever...

I remember when Yannis got his Les Paul Custom. I know that he lusted after that guitar for the longest time. I even know someone based here in Ireland on another guitar forum who I suspect pointed it out to Zhivago (also on another forum). At the time that he found it I'm sure that it hurt to buy that guitar - and I also remember being made up for him when he found that guitar, knowing how much it meant to him and knowing that it was a dream fulfilled kind of thing.

I gravitate towards the posts of those on here who put up beautiful old guitars - not because I view someone busting their gut to afford any guitar as somehow 'beneath' me or any of that nonsense - I've been that guy too over the years - but because I'm obsessive about these old instruments. I obsess about them in ways that aren't even rational - I'll sometimes throw good money after bad fixing issues on a guitar that I know I may well sell or flip because something isn't right about them. Hell ... I just put a set of repro white button tone pros on the ES330 when I know I'll be selling it! I did it because it didn't look right with grovers ... and because I'm obsessive. I love seeing Sookwinder post up his long threads about Epiphone versus Gibson acoustics from the '60s because I will be getting an informed view from someone who has hands on experience with these guitars who loves these things enough to want to share it with us all.

I'd hate to see those kind of posts disappear as they're the ones that'll teach me new stuff - in a way they sate the obsession.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by NickD » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:21 am

shadowplay wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:52 am


What really worries me is that folk with nice things might start to pause before posting, lest they look like they are showing off and not sharing both their good fortune but a beautiful artefact that we can all enjoy. My Mrs hates me posting photos of possessions, she tells me to stop and rags me about it but if everyone went down that road OSG would as well rename itself as Offsetguitarbridges.com. I don't think it's insensitive, or crass, especially when most of the people in here with collections of gorgeous vintage instruments seem to display social awareness.

Exactly.

Personally I think mgeek was being a prick and Despot should ignore the comments, plus it's his thread and he can post whatever questions he like in it, first world or otherwise. My 2p is that in the same situation (albeit not selling for a house) I never regretted selling any, and I feel better for a trimmed down collection.

On to posting nice things. If people are going to be arseholes about people posting nice things, then maybe people will think twice before posting them, and that's unfair. I get the impression that the people who do have nice guitars and amps (and cars, watches, motorbikes etc) have in the main got there by saving. This isn't a forum full of conspicuous consumers living on credit cards debt. I know for myself I don't earn a massive amount of money and anything I own I've worked and saved to get and I'm there by being sensible and not wasteful, and others are the same. If someone wants to be snide about that then, well, fuck them.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by mijmog » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:23 am

shadowplay wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:52 am
Something I notice on here is a certain attitude to 'nice things', you're almost guaranteed a longer thread on some common guitar available in any shop than something old and classic, even if the common guitar thread has a photo taken through the bottom of a jam jar. Then there's the persistant reference to rich kids and the like.

What really worries me is that folk with nice things might start to pause before posting, lest they look like they are showing off and not sharing both their good fortune but a beautiful artefact that we can all enjoy. My Mrs hates me posting photos of possessions, she tells me to stop and rags me about it but if everyone went down that road OSG would as well rename itself as Offsetguitarbridges.com. I don't think it's insensitive, or crass, especially when most of the people in here with collections of gorgeous vintage instruments seem to display social awareness.
I think about this a lot when I'm on here - I'll be honest some of my default, initial gut reaction to people posting beautiful, expensive vintage guitars or cars is a jealous "you bastard" then a millisecond later I forget about it because I remember it says more about my situation than the poster's, and I'm on a guitar forum about guitars and none of it matters, and then I get on with enjoying the images. A friend, who has a '54 LP Junior, a '67 ES335, a '50s ES140, a '50s Martin and numerous '60s Gibson acoustics was whinging the other day about not being able to afford a sixties ES330...what a shame...but I'm just jealous! Its my issue.

It highlights a weird disconnect between the internet and normal life - if you walked into a pub of everyday folk of myriad social standings and income levels and started telling them about how you had to sell your expensive guitars to buy a new flat you'd probably get a mock violin bow gesture from someone, but if you walked into a guitar show and did the same you'd get a sympathetic ear and possibly a potential buyer. With a public forum online it sometimes crosses both lines and its easy to forget the context of what you're reading.

I'm really glad OSG is here for posts on dilemmas such as Despot's - its a support group for obsessives. OSG is the place to do it, as I can't talk about it at home as my wife just tells me to sell everything "they're only bits of wood - you'll get another one day" and quit moaning!

A lot of what you talk about is to do with the conflict between the haves and the have nots, a narrative (I despise that word, forgive me) that is forced upon us all from everything from modern politics to the X Factor. Its so bloody complicated. We're happy to heap praise on someone who has won a TV Talent competition who used to work in a chippy, but if they got to the same point through years of hard work the general public would be suspicious and brand them an industry product. There are the rich kids who shop in charity shops to hide their affluence and then there are the poorest of the poor bragging on social media about their new 300inch Smart TVs and openly admitting to be aspirational. Its a real pea soup of a fog to wade through, especially online.

This on another tip and not related to the issue so forgive me - but I heard a great quote on Radio 4 the other day, that humans never ever reveal their true selves online, we plump ourselves up like mating birds. We are a nation of liars, however small the lie may be - and those who don't, face the risk of being pilloried or getting called out. We have to dress everything up with some form of embellishment, even if that is to make it seem more authentic or to dumb it down, for it to work.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by mgeek » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:28 am

I probably should have kept my mouth shut, and I apologise for being a nob.

Been on plenty of collector forums where discussion of value is seen as a bit distasteful and I'm more comfortable with that approach.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by mgeek » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:33 am

NickD wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:21 am
On to posting nice things. If people are going to be arseholes about people posting nice things, then maybe people will think twice before posting them, and that's unfair. I get the impression that the people who do have nice guitars and amps (and cars, watches, motorbikes etc) have in the main got there by saving. This isn't a forum full of conspicuous consumers living on credit cards debt. I know for myself I don't earn a massive amount of money and anything I own I've worked and saved to get and I'm there by being sensible and not wasteful, and others are the same. If someone wants to be snide about that then, well, fuck them.
I wasn't being an arsehole about posting nice things, the whole point of a guitar forum is posting nice things, this is a straw man argument. I was being an arsehole because I found such unabashed discussion of value distasteful.

Also- the second time the word snide has come up. I was being openly rude, snide means kinda sneakily unpleasant, and I wasn't being sneaky about it.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by Despot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:44 am

mgeek wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:28 am
I probably should have kept my mouth shut, and I apologise for being a nob.

Been on plenty of collector forums where discussion of value is seen as a bit distasteful and I'm more comfortable with that approach.
To be fair you're right mgeek - I probably shouldn't have posted values - it probably came across as a 'loadsa money!!' wanker thing when I was actually trying to figure out the logic of it (which when I do it in my head always involves what stuff is worth). I could just as easily have had the conversation without doing that but my post was sort of done on the fly between doing two other things and I didn't consider how it could have been received.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by shadowplay » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:52 am

mijmog wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:23 am

I think about this a lot when I'm on here - I'll be honest some of my default, initial gut reaction to people posting beautiful, expensive vintage guitars or cars is a jealous "you bastard" then a millisecond later I forget about it because I remember it says more about my situation than the poster's, and I'm on a guitar forum about guitars and none of it matters, and then I get on with enjoying the images. A friend, who has a '54 LP Junior, a '67 ES335, a '50s ES140, a '50s Martin and numerous '60s Gibson acoustics was whinging the other day about not being able to afford a sixties ES330...what a shame...but I'm just jealous! Its my issue.

It highlights a weird disconnect between the internet and normal life - if you walked into a pub of everyday folk of myriad social standings and income levels and started telling them about how you had to sell your expensive guitars to buy a new flat you'd probably get a mock violin bow gesture from someone, but if you walked into a guitar show and did the same you'd get a sympathetic ear and possibly a potential buyer. With a public forum online it sometimes crosses both lines and its easy to forget the context of what you're reading.
Both these paragraphs are true in their own way, I NEVER tell people I work with anything about things I own or talk to them about money, it's just not something I do. I barely talk to them at all to be honest but folk generally only find out stuff when they come and visit us. To be honest my best friends have virtually no interest in guitars or cars, they don't get it at all, my car mates and my record and fashion mates are quite strange bedfellows, with very little overlap.

To be honest I generally feel ashamed of my musical equipment, I often go and see folk with the simplest of gear who could own me untill the end of time. If I was a talented as you i'd probably feel a little uncomfortable looking at folk who polish more than play.

You probably be with me on the car thing, in that I was never that bothered about other folks 'fancy' cars because I was into fringe stuff that seemed affordable. I've always had champagne tastes and a lemonade budget and had to get down and dirty if I wanted some of the spillage. Sadly a lot of this stuff has been towed up and while I'm not exactly jealous, I get a bit annoyed that stuff I have loved since not long after I could speak. like Zagato bodied Flaminias, are now not only worth more than I could ever afford even with a lottery win (if I did the lottery) but bought by folk who either had to be told to like them or who are priced out of Ferraris and the like.

On here it's largely about your music stuff and while I'd not go out my way to talk about values, it's a reality and a think a lot of us are wired in such a way to be reckless of thought and sometimes it's good to see people with their heads srewed on. To be honest any time I mention money regarding cars or anything is to counteract any googling on value, which is the sort of numbers I am a mile away from and anyway I buy and sell to make the money anyway.

I am also of advanced years, I like to think I was never jealous but I might just be remembering my sunniest side up.

D
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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by mgeek » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:53 am

Despot wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:44 am
mgeek wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:28 am
I probably should have kept my mouth shut, and I apologise for being a nob.

Been on plenty of collector forums where discussion of value is seen as a bit distasteful and I'm more comfortable with that approach.
To be fair you're right mgeek - I probably shouldn't have posted values - it probably came across as a 'loadsa money!!' wanker thing when I was actually trying to figure out the logic of it (which when I do it in my head always involves what stuff is worth). I could just as easily have had the conversation without doing that but my post was sort of done on the fly between doing two other things and I didn't consider how it could have been received.
Still, I was being an uncalled for dick, so sorry.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by Despot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:14 am

No worries mgeek - I should have thought a little more before I posted.

All's good.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by Squirrel » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:41 am

shadowplay wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:52 am
Something I notice on here is a certain attitude to 'nice things', you're almost guaranteed a longer thread on some common guitar available in any shop than something old and classic, even if the common guitar thread has a photo taken through the bottom of a jam jar. Then there's the persistant reference to rich kids and the like.
I've noticed this too but from what I've seen it's waaaay worse on other forums. I find the sheer level of sour grapes directed towards collectors to be particularly astonishing. Every time there's a thread about a vintage guitar collection/museum it's only a matter of time before the "my Squier is better than a Fender" brigade starts bleating about "waaaaah but guitars are meant to be plaaaaayed they should be in the hands of real working musicians like meeeee". It's absolutely pathetic.

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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by shadowplay » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:59 am

mgeek wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:33 am


I wasn't being an arsehole about posting nice things, the whole point of a guitar forum is posting nice things, this is a straw man argument. I was being an arsehole because I found such unabashed discussion of value distasteful.
Ok this is fair enough and I'm sorry if I jumped in with both boots as usual. I'd absolutely agree if it was some Guitar Humidor Magazine sort of affair regarding some arsey glass case investment strategy ('this guitar is corked!') but in this case it was just one if us hoping to get out of a few guitars without a bloody nose and put the money into his future.

I think anyone who has followed Kevin's guitar adventures over the years is aware that he's played this game a few times where one guitar or more has gone to fund something else and this isn't too different.

I'm hoping he manages to at least get his money back, it's not flash or crass, it's pretty sensible if he can have his fun and not take a bath and I'll feel good for him if he does. I admit to thinking about the money in these things a fair bit but I've 6 dependents and any money I spend has to sit outside the family budget, so I near get a nosebleed thinking about some of the losses I've seen folk make selling nearly new guitars on OSG, just like the thought of depreciation on a car totally freaks me.

D
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Re: NGD - 1966 Fender Telecaster (player)

Post by StevenO » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:31 am

mgeek wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:33 am
I wasn't being an arsehole about posting nice things, the whole point of a guitar forum is posting nice things, this is a straw man argument. I was being an arsehole because I found such unabashed discussion of value distasteful.
With all due respect, why does it matter to you? Or, why would anyone care what you think?

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