Firebird Pup for Bite and Clarity in Low End?

[dffny]

Thanks for the info JVG--actually reassuring to hear someone else has identified the same issue.

[CorporateDisguise]

Just wanted to jump in here and say that Mr Fabulous makes awesome pickups. I have two sets of his firebird pickups and a big bird. One set in a Firebird and one in an Epiphone riviera. Just know that he is in Australia, so it may take awhile to get your pickups.

[dffny]

Just wanted to jump in here and say that Mr Fabulous makes awesome pickups. I have two sets of his firebird pickups and a big bird. One set in a Firebird and one in an Epiphone riviera. Just know that he is in Australia, so it may take awhile to get your pickups.

Thanks, CorporateDisguise -- I just ordered a neck pickup from him. He recommended the Alnico 5 magnet for the sound I was looking for. Stuck at home anyway, so I can wait.

[DaddyDom]

I think the confusion between the two comes from the fact that modern Firebirds use Mini Humbuckers. Not sure when exactly they started that, but yeah. Just listen to a modern Firebird, and compare it to one from the 60’s. You can definitely hear the difference between the two.

Hillerheilman, or anybody - who knows when they started using minis?
I badly wanted one of the 90s Firebird RIs back then but you know, life, and then, trying some new ones confirmed they sound lame today.

[Larry Mal]

Well... I don't know when Gibson went with the modern Firebird pickups, but I'll quibble a bit here.

What Gibson has been using for a while are some ceramic things and that's what came in my 2010 Firebird. They weren't as awful as I had heard they would be, one trick ponies, but they did the trick well.

(I think they might also have stopped using the ceramic things.)

But the point I am trying to make is that those ceramic things were also not what you would call "mini-humbuckers", and when I say the term "mini-humbucker" I am using it in the sense of what you would have found on the Les Paul Deluxe back in the day (which was a repurposed Epiphone design).

So we need to think of these as three separate designs:

1) The Firebird pickup, which has been discussed above,

2) The mini-humbucker as most known on the 70's era Les Paul Deluxe, an unloved pickup in its day but a very good one,

3) The fucking ceramic piece of shit that I pulled out of my Firebird and replaced with #1.

Maybe this will help. Maybe not.

[Embenny]

Edit: Larry beat the buzzer on this one. Firebirds have never, to my knowledge, used mini-humbuckers *the kind with steel polepieces).

All of the modern era ones, however, used overwound firebird bobbins with ceramic magnets, which sound much more like regular hot humbuckers.

The solution is to replace the pickups with proper reissues.

If you want a sample of what proper firebirds sound like, the new Epiphone firebirds have properly-built firebird pickups, which started with the Joe Bonamassa signature and now includes their regular firebird.

Those things are Alnico II though and are on the warm side of firebird pickups. You'll still hear a clear difference from the regular Gibson overwound ceramic junk, though.

I like alnico V magnets in a firebird, they're brighter and more aggressive.

[Larry Mal]

If you want a sample of what proper firebirds sound like, the new Epiphone firebirds have properly-built firebird pickups, which started with the Joe Bonamassa signature and now includes their regular firebird.

Those things are Alnico II though and are on the warm side of firebird pickups. You'll still hear a clear difference from the regular Gibson overwound ceramic junk, though.

I like alnico V magnets in a firebird, they're brighter and more aggressive.

I think Gibson is done with the ceramic things. If you go here:

https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/USA5KL895 ... acco-Burst

You'll see that they are using Alnico 5 pickups again- why not Alnico 2, I can't say.

Why it took them so long, I also can't say, except my speculation is that the Firebird is Gibson's Jazzmaster- a model that the new management inherited, and never quite understood. Fender thinks the Jazzmaster is for people who want to be "alternative" or "different" when it's really just a very good all around guitar.

Gibson thinks that the Firebird is for blooze players when really the Firebird is just an all around good guitar.

[Embenny]

Oh interesting, that must be a new development then.

A5 is part of the story, hopefully they aren't still overwinding them to hell. They were something absurd like 12-14k when vintage ones are usually bit under 7k with AWG 42 wire.

[CorporateDisguise]

My 2001 firebird had the terrible ceramic pickups in it. They’re such an over compressed mess. Although I must admit it was cool to be able to do tapped harmonics clean. But when I want to do that, I’ll just use a compressor.

[hillerheilman]

Hillerheilman, or anybody - who knows when they started using minis?
I badly wanted one of the 90s Firebird RIs back then but you know, life, and then, trying some new ones confirmed they sound lame today.

I think I may have misspoke here. Upon researching I can’t seem to find one that used the mini hums s(with the screws visible) either. Maybe I saw an Epiphone or two or maybe a modded Firebird with mini hums, and jumbled that up in my head with them switching to the ceramic magnet ones. My bad.

I know that the difference between the modern and vintage pickups is basically that in the modern ones they used ceramic magnets, and overwound the crap out of them. Like, 2-3 times as much as a vintage one. Which I gather is why they’re generally not regarded as well. No idea exactly when they started doing that though. Nor do I know of them returning to the old ones or something more similar. However, there are many on the forum more knowledgeable than I.

[Larry Mal]

I know that the difference between the modern and vintage pickups is basically that in the modern ones they used ceramic magnets, and overwound the crap out of them. Like, 2-3 times as much as a vintage one.

Yeah, I seem to remember reading that the bridge pickup on the ceramic sets was wound to like 15-18k or something.

Like I say, Gibson didn't know what the Firebird was supposed to be, so they had to research what it was themselves after the Norlin years (when they did make Firebirds to a degree also). Or so I have always assumed.

It seems that they saw that Firebirds were popular with blooze players so they decided that was what it was, and made some awful, hot pickups for blooze.

And they forgot that the Firebird was supposed to be a direct competitor to the Fender sound, but with superior Gibson construction.

[Mitch T]

Totally different point, in reply to the original question.
I had a Epi JB Firebird I and it had the exact same problem. Just the low E being more muffled, even so lower in volume. Internet showed more people experiencing these problems, either with the high or (mostly) low E.
Close inspection learnt that the pickup and bridge weren't lined out perfectly. So a structural issue with the guitar, not the pickup per se, anthough it turned out that the guts were a bit narrow. I mean, the magnet and so the field were a bit narrow. After a reset of the bridge studs it was almost perfect.

[Embenny]

That's actually a good point, the magnets in the pickup don't go anywhere near the edge. I have a guitar with angled P90s, and the bridge pickup was routed out of alignment so badly that the low E string is several mm to the side of even the edge of the current polepiece. I've been exploring pickup replacement options that would work, but I ruled out firebirds (which I REALLY wish I could have put in that guitar) because the magnets really need to be properly aligned:

[Mitch T]

Ah, clear picture! Shows my point exactly

[gusgorman]

So having read this thread with interest, I'm wondering if on the new Firebirds, is the description of the pickups as "Firebird Alnico V Pickups" misleading? Or are they actually going back to proper Firebird pickups with the new version?

https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/gibson-fire ... ct-details