Hidden middle pickup?

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alexpigment
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Hidden middle pickup?

Post by alexpigment » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:54 am

Hey guys, I've had an idea for a while to add a middle pickup under the pickguard that I can easily switch on and off with a push pull pot. Essentially it would give me the option for 2 & 4 position Strat sounds.

My question is this: due to the lower height of the pickup compared to the other two, how would I need to compensate? Would just a hotter pickup do? Or would you recommend having some resistor to lower the sound of the other pickups? I don't think I'd mind a slight volume drop overall if it meant better blending. Of course, I'd need to route out a pickup cavity in the guitar, so I want to make sure this is a sound idea before I try it.

And before you ask why I want it hidden, there are two reasons. First, due to the size of the JM pickups, adding a middle pickup would decrease my picking area significantly and I really want to keep that space clear. Secondly, I'd like to keep the standard JM aesthetic.

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Embenny
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Re: Hidden middle pickup?

Post by Embenny » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 am

There are a few things you'll have to accept if you want to do this. The first thing is that it'll never sound like a pickup that is above the pickguard. There is no compensating for matters of physics - an ultra high-output pickup 1" from the strings will sound nothing like a normal-output pickup 1/16" from the string.

The second thing is that the in-between positions will also sound nothing like with a normal pickup. The "quack" of 3-pickup guitars comes from the cancellation of certain frequencies being picked up by similar pickups - that's when neck/middle and middle/bridge "quack" more than neck/bridge, since those last two pickups are seeing sonic information that is more dissimilar.

"Fat" strats (with a humbucker at the bridge) quack a whole lot less in position 2 because the humbucker is outputting more mids and more output than the middle pickup. Even if you get the volume mismatch issue sorted out with a hidden middle pickup, it'd have to be high-inductance (high output) which emphasizes midrange frequencies and drops the frequency of the resonant peak. Dropping it far from the strings would also mean it picks up much less of the low frequencies. So you have the highs attenuated by a low resonant frequency, the lows attenuated by distance from the strings, and mids accentuated from high inductance to try to get a usable output. It just isn't going to quack much.

To be honest, you'll have far more usable results from a far simpler mod if you try something like Bill Lawrence's half-phase mod. It essentially makes a two-pickup guitar "quack" in a similar way to a strat, probably much more usably than a hidden pickup would.
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jvin248
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Re: Hidden middle pickup?

Post by jvin248 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:56 am

.

You may have more success than the prior post talks to.

these are the keys for Quack:
-unequal strength pickups, but adjust heights
-unequal height pickups, sometimes unequal 'tip' bass vs treble
-flat across poles vs staggered
-pickups in parallel
-strumming closer to the neck or even over the 20s frets
-how you strum/pick

Because the middle will be up against the bottom of the pickguard, drop the JM neck pickup as low to the pickguard as you can, the bridge JM to volume balance with the neck. Use the JM neck height adjust to find the maximum Quack.

.

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Re: Hidden middle pickup?

Post by Embenny » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:43 am

jvin248 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:56 am
Because the middle will be up against the bottom of the pickguard, drop the JM neck pickup as low to the pickguard as you can, the bridge JM to volume balance with the neck. Use the JM neck height adjust to find the maximum Quack.

.
Yeah, sorry if I sounded overly pessimistic, but you mentioned the exact reason I'm skeptical - lowering JM pickups is more problematic than lowering strat pickups, because JMs typically have/need much higher neck angles for good action. On all my JMs and jags, that means my bridge and pickup heights are further above the pickguard than on my strats. I've also found JM pickups to sound very suboptimal when dropped down away from the strings, and I didn't think OP is looking to sacrifice his neck and bridge tone for the sake of getting some quack.

Check out this video. It's the only one I could find showing the half out of phase mod, but it truly does quack, and is so easy to implements. I read about it ages ago but never looked into it. I think I might start adding it to my jags and JMs.
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Re: Hidden middle pickup?

Post by alexpigment » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:32 pm

Thanks for the replies. I looked at the vid of the half out of phase mod, and it honestly it sounds less stratty/quacky than the normal parallel positions to my ears. So I have a feeling the effect would be much more diminished when the pickups are farther apart. I could be wrong, but that's just my impressions from the video.

Secondly, the height of my pickups are already pretty low, because I reverse-shimmed my neck to get the bridge down. I'd guess that the difference in pickup height would probably be a centimeter for the bridge and maybe 6-7mm for the neck. That's a ballpark, but still.

Lastly, it's also worth mentioning that I'll probably be doing this on my main JM which has a Tele bridge pickup under the cover and a Strat neck pickup, so the general sound of the pickups shouldn't be too dissimilar I would think.

I guess I just really want to know if it's possible to get the quack with those height differences mentioned, and if so, what sort of compensations in pickups need to be made. I really don't want a hot pickup in there, but knowing if I need something a little overwound would help me choose between vintage-style or modern-style pickups. I would even go ceramic if I thought it would help.

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Re: Hidden middle pickup?

Post by Embenny » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:10 pm

Oh, that's fantastic news then. I'd go with a pickup that has a lot of treble and at least moderate output - A5 for sure, maybe ceramic as you say (though a lot of ceramic single coils are wound such that they have more aggressive mids). The highest amount of quack comes when the middle is lower than the neck and bridge anyway.

Depending on budget, you might talk to a custom winder about essentially doing a moderately-wound pickup with extra-large alnico magnets, like an underwound Quarter Pounder. The large magnets would increase output without that mid bump of an overwind.
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