JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

[BTL]

What a great thread!

I have only read about a third so far, and I'm mesmerized.

[AcrylicSuperman]

What a great thread!

I have only read about a third so far, and I'm mesmerized.

Thank you.

It was difficult at times to put the pieces all together. Other times, the answers came easily. There are definitely still a few unanswered questions that we may never know the answer to, but we do know the shape, the specs, how it left Fender and how Kurt had it modified.

There are 3 details that I can't seem to find an answer to. First, which neck did Kurt initially send in to get cloned? There is evidence to support the compstang and the jaguar, but no irrefutable proof. Second, was the jagstang routed for a long leg JB? Only one tech has made this claim and Earnie, as far as I know, has never mentioned it despite supposedly doing it. And third, Larry Brooks would stamp his initials and a number in the neck pocket. The number was the number of guitars he had built up until that point. It is safe to say that the Jagstang has a number in the neck pocket, but we will likely never know what that number is.

[Amon 7.L]

What a great thread!

I have only read about a third so far, and I'm mesmerized.

Thank you BeeTL,
I hope you'll enjoy the rest of the reading.

[BTL]

I have re-read this thread a couple of times now.

Thank you both for pulling this all together...really fantastic!

[AcrylicSuperman]

I have re-read this thread a couple of times now.

Thank you both for pulling this all together...really fantastic!

Keep an eye on it. It may or may not be done yet.

Let's just say that MAYBE I found who has the red prototype and MAYBE they have the cardboard cutouts and MAYBE they live about a 2 hour drive from me and MAYBE I'm going to try to get tracings of the cardboard cutouts. MAYBE.

That's my story and I am sticking to it. Lol

[Rgand]

Well. MAYBE I find this new development an exciting one.

[Amon 7.L]

Well. MAYBE I find this new development an exciting one.

to whom it may concern, I've got a new entry for ya.

You know I've overlapped the two cardboard cutouts and found out that none of them matches the blue prototype, right?
Furthermore, adding the tracing of the hi-res picture of the production JS to the mix showed that even the production model doesn't match either of them....

Well, MAYBE Acrylic Superman sent me a new acquired pic of the red prototype and I noticed that the top horn is more blunt than the above mentioned JS tracing I've used at the beginning of this very thread as a starting point.

I'll spare you the boring parts but I can tell you that said tracing (which is the "jagstang.pdf" you find online) is more flawed than expected and even the hi-res picture has been misleading.

So, given now a clear and straight pic of the real deal, that very sharp shape reminded me of the neckless cardboard cutout and AutoCAD has proven my impression being right.
There you go, overlapping shot:



Even thou is not a perfect match (for obvious reasons being online pics), we have a highest-rate proof of the neckless cardboard cutout being the matrix of the red prototype.

The necked cutout is still a mistery as for it doesn't match any other iteration. The dead give-away is the lower cutaway should be much larger and the lower bout being much fatter than the neckless cutout. (We know prot 1 is FAT whilst prot 2 is SLIM).

Cheers.

[Rgand]

That's a very close match. I only see a difference in the upper cutout close to the neck and the lower cutout. Very cool, indeed.

[AcrylicSuperman]

Concerning the red prototype:

Unfortunately, obtaining direct tracings of either the prototype or the cardboard cutouts is not an option but we can't miss what we never had.

For those that are curious, the guitar was purchased by a current Fender employee. I will withhold his name for privacy concerns. This employee is a huge Nirvana fan and is also a guitar collector. The guitar currently resides in the Phoenix/Scottsdale, Arizona area and I believe that the guitar is in excellent hands. I do worry about the UV index here though.

The headstock of the guitar has heavily darkened, so much so that the Fender logo is now nearly invisible. However, the back of the neck has not aged in the same manner and the body color has stayed consistent all the way around. The body was clearly sprayed in poly while the neck on the red prototype is nitro. The headstock has aged so extremely due to exposure to lights and potentially sun. Another neat little bit about the guitar is that there is a gap between the pickguard and control plate on this one. Apart from the gap, the cutout practically matching nearly identically and the revelation that the neck was done in nitro, I don't believe there is really anything left to learn about the red prototype.

Having said that, the guitar is in a good home and the owner is going to take great care of it. I believe it is his favorite piece in his collection. It is sealed inside a glass case and hung next to it is the framed sketch Kurt had sent to Fender. He left the Juliens auction plaque in the frame.

But before I end this post, I wanted to showcase something worth note. Amon lined up one of the Cobain signature mustangs with the red prototype and the headstocks are a 100% identical match. It proves that Scott Zimmerman did build the necks at the Fujigen plant. The Cobain Mustang necks were also made at the same plant. Their identical match implies that they were both made in the same place with the same templates.



And now, a few photos of prototype 2.

[Fendereedo]

Amazing build, absolutely gorgeous!

[Amon 7.L]

Hi folks,
Yet another update for you.

We all know about the famous polaroid sketch, right? The story goes with Kurt taking a picture of his Mustang, of the Jaguar and then making the crossover known as the “JAG-STANG”.
What we aren’t told from the start is that whilst the Mustang is indeed his Competition Blue, the Jaguar in question is not what has become his signature, it’s actually his second one mentioned and described in Kurt’s equipment as:

“60's sunburst Fender Jaguar, dot neck, lefty, bad reproduction pickguard (41), serial # L83660 (59). Kurt had another Jaguar but it wasn't the same as his '65. It had DiMarzio pickups which were returned to stock pickups by Airline Vintage in Texas where the guitar was purchased in the Fall of 1992 for about $500 (41)”

Here's a self-explanatory comparison layout that shows the giveaways:



end of part 1.
part 2 is coming in a few hours

[Amon 7.L]

...welcome to part 2.

Now the subject shifts back to the mystery of the two cardboard cutouts, one of which, the neckless one, we’re now safe to say it’s the matrix of the Red Prototype, whilst the other is a shape on its own that doesn’t match anything else.
The length of the traced neck is too short and it bugged the hell out of me, it just couldn’t be outlined off the Compstang.
To corroborate this theory once for all after what has been already displayed, I did another overlapping mix but this time, thanks to AcrylicSuperman who sent me a hi-res pic of said Mustang (and after some tweaks on Photoshop to scale things properly), the result is clear:



If you look at the pic, scaling the cutout to match the body makes its neck profile turn bigger in the taper department and yet, the headstock results way back the position of the prototype's counterparts.
This means that if any neck were bolted on an alleged body, the neck pocket would have been cut too much inwards to the bridge side, which it doesn't make sense.

Matching the neck's taper results in the body becoming smaller than the prototype and the headstock would be even more far back, so... goodbye intonation and pickguard & hardware fitting.

Hence: It's confirmed, the traced neck doesn't either match the 24" scale nor the headstock shape I mean "ever":

1. Resizing the headstock to match prototype 2's: Fails.
2. Scaling the cutout to match the neck profile: Fails.
3. Scaling the cutout to match the body outline: Fails.
4. The cardboard headstock has a very unique shape, the inner curve between the fin towards the “big ball” is too tight compared to standard Mustang or either CBS counterparts (more on this later).

Myth completely busted: The Compstang's neck is not what has been used to make the cardboard cutout.

Of course this doesn’t ease up our situation.
You guys have no idea of the extent of discussing has taken place behind the scenes between me and AcrylicSuperman but I’ll try to simplify and report the gist of the foundings.

We know that Larry Brooks made the early prototype bodies and there has been some bouncing back and forth with Kurt to make the adjustments that lead to the two incarnation of the prototypes.
We also know that Larry Brooks didn’t build the necks, Scott Zimmerman did.
With this in mind, we have to consider another factor: Kurt was on tour during the period in which the cutouts were made, therefore there’s no chance he was dismantling “his favourite neck” (whichever was) back and forth to Larry.
Mystery gets darker as the necked cutout is something that could have been a tweaked version of the blue prototype, something cut from scratch or anything in between.
We could even think of a naked body being traced first and then, the outline of a neck template (or an actual mustang neck SANS machine heads) scratched on top of it. Really, everything is possible.

From that premise, I thought about another possible lead:
Something like a 22.5" scale neck would explain the headstock being in that position but, to my knowledge, all the Mustang/Duosonic that sported such a feature have an "A" nut width (1 1/2" or 38.10mm), which is thinner than what you get in a Jagstang (1.5625" or 39.68mm).
Plus, the headstock in these necks are very distinctive as they have a more pronounced fin and a smaller ball end compared to the standard CBS shape.
I've also seen Jaguar necks being 22.5" and "A" width but they had the standard Jaguar pre-CBS shape. Super rare thou.
So, even given these extra possibilities, the headstock would be very different from what we have in the cutout.

Nonetheless, because at this stage: “why not?”, I’ve tried some more overlapping scenarios using said necks:

Fails. Even upscaling it a bit to match the lower fin's curve, the rest is no-go.

Better luck with a proper 25.5" CBS lefty Stratocaster headstock?

Nah. (But the decal on the lefty strat is super cool)

The only Fender headstock I know that has a similar small transition tight curve is the Jazzmaster, but if you're familiar with it, you know that the overall shape is another business altogether. Plus, so to speak, Kurt never had a Jazzmaster in the first place.
If you think this could stop my OCD, you're wrong. AutoCAD custom-made neck for the win:

Alright, no more bullets to shoot. No Fender headstock matches in both shape nor scale.

At this point, we're back to our premise: we could be dealing with something that could have been completely cut from scratch.

End of part 2.
(More to come in part 3. Stick around.)

[Amon 7.L]

Sorry for splitting the update in what has turned being a trilogy but I've been interrupted.

Let's move on this part. 3.

Given that sort of dead end, the next move is to go back to square one, again. For the umpteenth time.
Pardon the redundancy but these notions are crucial for the next steps. Bear with me, if you will.

As stated other times before it's indeed possible that Larry used an unknown real neck on the very first body he cut for Kurt that has been separately traced (and/or tweaked in shape afterwards).
We know Larry had to rush so, if I'm walking in his shoes, it would have been easier and million times faster for me to just grab one of my Mustang or Jaguar mdf template (with their legitimate headstock shapes) and -if necessary- cut a blank out of them as a prop for Kurt to test the fitting in playing position.

Yet, even with having said blank at hand to trace things nicely, the outcome is bonkers, which in turn leads me to what could be our best bet:
It was fucking free handed with or without any sort of neck. (This would explain why the body is another shape on its own).

I've shared this conclusion with AcrylicSuperman and his reply on the subject was the following:
"It is entirely possible that it was free handed. It is also entirely possible that it may not have been meant for the blue one at all, but rather a revision for the red one. Honestly, I think that might make more sense in the long run, since it seems Fender only kept things on the red one."

He has a very good point here; we know in fact that Kurt did those two cardboard cutouts as a blueprint. What has never been said, unfortunately, is the correlation to their blue and later red prototypes counterparts.

Considering Kurt died before seeing the red prototype, this cutout gets even more interesting if we think there are 2 cutouts for the same ongoing revision..


Now I reckon that, in order to make logical sense from the reader's point of view, I'll have to basically copy & paste the private messages between me and AcrylicSuperman.
Cutting too short to the gist without explaining all the very last passages would make it look less substantial, I've asked his permission and he agrees.
I do apologise for the fragmentation, but I can't do differently.

The next entry will be long, but it will give you an insight of the amount of exchange that went on behind the scenes since the beginning of this project.

Thank you for your comprehension.

[Amon 7.L]

As anticipated, here’s the transcription of the behind the scene between me and AcrylicSuperman.

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Sent: Aug 17th, '19, 21:45
From: Amon 7.L
Recipient: AcrylicSuperman

Considering Kurt died before the seeing the red prototype, this cutout (the necked one) gets even more interesting if you think there are 2 cutouts for the same ongoing revision.

I was watching the two cardboards, again. I have another theory that might support yours.

Digitally traced.

Cardboards

The necked one would have been a "first take" at reshaping the body outline, then the second cutout followed with details of neck pocket/pickguard/pickups/bridge location (it would explain why the neckless is fatter on the lower bout than the necked, as if he felt he went too far and he decide to fix that, enlarge the rear butt and sharpen the top horn.)

Another thing I've noticed and I'd like your opinion about is that, against what I've just stated above, the cyano (necked cutout) looks more harmonious in terms of curves (the upper cutaway mirrors the lower, very similar width), more "refined" than the red one (which we know being the 2nd prototype).
In short, the cyano looks like an improvement over the red one. Even on AutoCAD the spline (a command tool that automates curvy outlines by tracking nodes) is made of very fewer nodes compared to its counterpart. Less nodes=smoothest curve.

This would mean that the cyano was just disregarded altogether because of the red one or Kurt simply thought they were "one and the same" and sent'em both as a reference to make the red prototype. Then Larry picked up the red cutout because he thought: "more details=better accuracy" or something like that.

Am I making sense or the heat has compromised my reasoning?

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Sent: Aug 17th, '19, 22:35
From: AcrylicSuperman
Recipient: Amon 7.L

I'm thinking you are right. While they both have their differences, they are pretty similar in ways. And if kurt basically free handed them, he may not have noticed the difference between them. It may also be all together possible that larry saw problems with the necked cutout and consulted kurt about it, resulting in kurt to make just a body cutout. I mean, the red cutout is a lot more thorough in terms of dimensions and placements. I do think the blue outline looks more sleek though. It looks way more proportionate.

I'd be willing to speculate that the necked one came first. And the body cutout came as a final confirmation.

At this point, larry would have had to start over from scratch again and he did shave down 3 months off the wait time. The more accurate the cutout, the easier it probably was to make it a reality.

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Sent: Aug 18th, '19, 11:48
From: Amon 7.L
Recipient: AcrylicSuperman

I'm a bit torn, the hamster in my head keeps telling me that there's something there that I'm missing.

This is probably some overkill thinking on my part mostly driven by the digital tracing of the two cutouts. Of course they look smoother in shape due to the automatic generated curves out of the imposed nodes whilst their cardboard counterparts are more "crude" to the eye for obvious reason but I'm keep seeing the cyano one as the more refined and it leads me to the following.

There's one ritual thing that happens after the designing process: you print it out and then you want to see how it looks on you. We know Kurt did that and Larry put a neck on it to try the general feel off the guitar as a whole.
My feeling is that he firstly draw the red one including a pencil-lines of the hardware and THEN, once he finished up with the designing process, he tried to see how the cutout looked against his body in playing position. At that point, he felt he needed a neck but the cutout was already chopped in the neck pocket to add the tracing of a neck, therefore he made another one, more refined and with a possibly free-handed/rough approximated neck silhouette.
Once more, he tried again the new outfit.
I always do that as well when designing new bodies, sometimes they look great on the screen but once you print'em up, you found out they are too little/too big/not enough comfy/weird, or they just look off so to speak. Even when you have a body blank and put strap buttons on it and you feel the body hanging on the strap, you're compelled to put any sort of neck prop to feel alright. Seriously, it's mandatory.

Summing up:
1) Kurt's traced red came first;
2) he needed a neck for testing in a playing position so he made the cyano;
3) he and/or Larry thought they were "one and the same shape", but for unknown reasons, the red cutout has been preferred. (as you said, maybe Larry found out the neck wasn't on scale and choose the red one because it sported the neck pocket location. Lazy but understandable reason);
4) red prototype happened.

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Sent: Aug 18th, '19, 12:54
From: AcrylicSuperman
Recipient: Amon 7.L

Sounds logical to me. If the neck doesn't match the jagstang neck (which we know it doesn't), it concludes that he didn't even bother reworking the blue prototype. Instead, he straight up started from scratch.

I would also take the tour dates into account. We know that he got the blue prototype in late october (23rd) and we know that all mods, except cutting the switch tips, were done by MTV Unplugged (novermber 18, 1993), we know that it made it's first appearance on December 1st, and we know that it still was going under the file on December 2nd. We also.know that the european leg starts February 4, 1994. My guess is that he played the blue prototype until the US leg ended in january, and then did the cutouts.

If you look at it like that, it would make a ton of sense to have designed the body first and then add a neck to it. In the long run, he was about to be in Europe, so sending bodies and necks back and forth wasn't really going to be an option anymore. It does seem likely that he did the neck free hand, and probably the body too. I don't think there is much on the full cutout other than kurt making it clear that he was left handed. But that cutout was likely the result of him testing it with a neck as best as he could under the circumstances.

Since Scott built and shipped 2 necks at the same time, it definitely shows that he wanted 2 from the beginning. One sonic (he got it in a shade of daphne), one fiesta to go with his mustangs. But one thing becomes clear, despite interaction on the blue one, he disliked it enough to undergo a complete overhaul. He made a direct move to stop a red one from going forward until he revised it. Being that he would be on limited time to even talk to Larry in detail about it, he likely sent both to Larry and Larry either chose the body cutout out of ease or he chose it because Kurt actually drew out the pickguard, pickups and hardware and he assumed that the body was the final revision. Both are totally possible, but if I put myself in his shoes, if instructions weren't clear, I would have chose the body cutout as well, assuming that it was the revision.

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Sent: Aug 18th, '19, 13:14
From: Amon 7.L
Recipient: AcrylicSuperman

That's pretty much it, I reckon.
It's both logical and practical, yet timing coherent.

Unless we come to hear from Larry himself, I think this is the most plausible reconstruction of the actual events.

If it's ok for you, I'll start working on photoshop to make a few pics and then I'll write up a new thread update.
I think we've done a rather good job, mate

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Sent: Aug 18th, '19, 13:17
by AcrylicSuperman

For sure. Go for it.

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....and here I came for the end of the chapter

Thank you.

[AcrylicSuperman]

I simply can not express how much truly goes on behind the scenes. We pick apart everything at the seems. Any detail, no matter how big or how small, we have both gone out of our way to prove or disprove all of it. Certainly, there are things that can't always be explained or details that we will never know, but research is so specifically in depth at times that there are periods of days where I can trace the footsteps of 5 different people and tell you where and how they are all connected. There have been times where we have hit dead ends, and we hear one little piece in an interview, or see a piece of footage we have never seen before, or we here from a tech or a master builder who was there and that one piece of evidence practically unlocks the universe. The puzzle pieces are all out there. Not saying they are easy to find or obtain, but they are out there.

Sadly, Kurt died in an age where people weren't able to communicate with each other quite like we can today. Wild rumors spread about a guitar that was virtually unknown and there was next to no possible way to confirm or deny it. Eventually, those telling and retelling created these elements as fact, and I think we were able to prove some false, some true and some to be half truths.

To those who have been reading this and following along on the journey, if there is anything you want to know about the jagstangs that you feel like we haven't covered, please ask. If we are doing this, I want to leave no stone unturned.

I think my next task is trying to track down his second jaguar. I don't know if it holds any answers or not, but I wont know unless it is examined. It did play some role in all of this. And if he favored a jaguar neck as his journals depict, it is possible that it is the second jaguar neck and not the primary. I certainly have questions that I hope I can answer.