JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:28 am

This is great, guys!!
Thank you lots and lots to both Krossfader and to Supersonicjazzmaster for providing these measurements, you're awesome.

Now that we have all the needed informations to confirm a theory I had and I've discussed with AcrylicSuperman behind the scenes, I will share it with all of you.

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Given manufacturing tolerance and being Kurt's Jagstangs and Mustangs crafted by the same luthier (Scott Zimmerman), it would be rather non-sense to have different specifications unless duly requested by Kurt himself, but we established not being the case, as it would have been mentioned from one source or another in the likes of:
"On the next Jagstang's revision I want a neck like Skystang III" or "On Skystang VI I want a Jagstang blue prototype neck", instead we just had Fender's mantra: "it has Kurt's favourite neck" which -if we now consider what I've just stated above- could even being true, aside from the fact that said favourite neck wasn't a copy of his 69 Compstang nor of his main Jaguar but simply and rightously (if that then became the footprint of all the lovely comfy MG 69 RI necks), the neck Scott Zimmerman profiled for both Jagstangs Prototypes and Custom Ordered Mustangs.

Remember this:
Vintage Mustangs had either 22" or 24" neck with an "A" (1.5") or "B" (1 5/8") width at the nut;
All the Japanese Reissue NEVER HAD a proper "A" width nut. There's only the "B" width in the MG 65 RI and, guess what, later on we have the new width that came onwards from the MG 69 RI: the METRIC 40mm always indicated in the instrument specification (1.575" for the Imperialists :D ).

There's also a recap I've found on an old OSG thread:
Image

As you can see, disregarding the MG 65's B width, all the later Mustang have got the same 1.574" unique width and the Jagstang's is pretty much the same, they just probably taken the measurement off a neck with a hair thinner clear coat (Remember manufacturing & environmental tolerance).
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In response to this, AcrylicSuperman stated : "It makes perfect sense. It also makes sense as to why the profiles eventually changed and why the KC Mustang never got that same neck when it was produced, because Scott, while still living in Japan, left Fender to build banjos.

I definitely think Scott deserves credit for creating one of the most popular necks of all time."


It all seems to come full circle even more now, thanks to our fellows courtesy and I guess we're safe to say that in fact even both Prototypes and Production Jagstangs have a common matrix.

Furthermore, and curiously, just like the KC signature Jaguar doesn't have a faithful replica of the original neck, the later official KC Mustangs are not a faithful replica of the standard MG 69 RI as the former is reported being a "B" width nut whilst the latter have the unique 40mm Scott Zimmerman spec'd width Fender Japan used on said 69 RI onwards. Let's reiterate it and keep in mind, we determinated that Kurt's Custom Ordered Mustang were basically stock Mustangs 69 RI, at least, before being notoriously modded to his specs.

Cheers.
Last edited by Amon 7.L on Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by supersonicjazzmaster » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:47 am

For request here are a few measures for the gravities depths. : )


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these two are the little steps:

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It starts... when it begins.
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:34 pm

Ralf,
I dare to speak for myself and on behalf of all the people involved/interested in this project: Thank you for being such a participative and active fellow, your inputs have been precious. Much appreciated.

OSG rules.

Amon

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:24 pm

Hello everyone!

I've been busy with some serious family emergencies lately, but while I was dealing with all of that chaos, some of Kurt's possessions went up for auction. These items weren't anything significant and went relatively under the radar. However, two pieces of his journal went up for auction and both of them are interesting. The first is a sketch done in 1992 and I believe this is a design for what became the ferrington guitar. The other appears to be a revision for the Jagstang. As we showcased previously, there was a revision for what we know to be the red prototype body that never was built. I think that despite never owning the red prototype, he was still working on it before his death. These two pages are images that were never made public, so I saved them because I wanted to share them with you guys. Enjoy!

Image

Image

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:58 pm

The work is never done. I apologize for posting twice in a row, but I noticed something about the neck of the blue prototype tonight that all of us overlooked. Let's be honest though, it's not really our fault. Most pictures and videos are poor quality and even REM's videos were kind of crazy and all over the place. Blink of an eye and anyone would have missed it. In fact, for over 25 years, everyone has.

Image

Here is a pic from REM's "Let Me In". If you look at the headstock closely, you'll discover that the headstock actually has two string trees. This news intrigued me, so I went back to the only professional picture of Kurt playing it and I initially thought the second one was there, but it isn't. So either Kurt had it done, or REM did it. It is difficult to say who as both modified it. However, upon looking at that, I noticed something else. There is a little bit of writing under the fender decal. It is some very small print and we'll likely never know what this says, but you can also see the same thing in the "Let Me In" video. If I had to take an educated guess, this may be where the serial number was placed. The red proto got the serial on the neck plate but blue didn't. Nor was it on the back of the headstock. But it was designated #0000000000-KC.

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I went back and looked at the red prototype to see if it received the second string tree. It did not. Nor did the production models. Here is the red prototype before the headstock aged to the brown tint it is today. The string tree is also in a different location.

Image

So the two string trees are unique to the blue prototype as it was at some point added to the guitar.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:00 am

Alright folks, I'll throw my 2cents here...

I reckon it's a safe bet to consider the 2nd string tree the aftermath of Peter Buck having the guitar re-strung from left-handed to right-handed.
Reason for my guess is also the following:
Image
This is a pic of the headstock of my Squier Affinity Strat that I had my luthier re-strung for left-handed.
He didn't add the string tree due to the sole fact that the guitar came stock with them, but I can see why a luthier would have added the extra one on the Jag-stang during the conversion for Buck.

Now, let's move on to the underlying text below the Fender logo.
There's surely is something there and here's my opinion about it.
As most of us know, left-handed guitars in Fender's world never had a dedicated treatment in the decal department as their right-handed counterparts. As a matter of fact, aside from very rare occasions, they would have either slapped a right-handed one or simply put the simple "Fender" logo omitting the model's name altogether. This is an issue that's still running on at present day. (Squier on this subject is ahead of Fender as it took good care of us giving proper flipping on their lefty guitars' decal).

During the CBS era though, a better treatment was finally served and proper lefty decals with full "FENDER + model's name" was designed and applied on southpaw specimens.
Here's one example, a '78 Fender Mustang:
Image

What we do see above is a full fledged & complete decal with all the details:
1) Fender logo with a serial number on the bottom (you can clearly read "serial number" as a text + full number sequence);
2) Model's name with "made in U.S.A." underlying text on the bottom.

Given the above elements, I went on looking at the Jag-stang's headstock again and tried my best to enhance the picture to see if my eyes were giving me a false report detecting something even more peculiar.
Image
It looks (I reinforce it, it's only my opinion) like there's not only 1 but TWO separated texts, being the first smaller whilst the second bolder.

If we now look back at the '78 Mustang's decal we can see a similar pattern in which below the big FENDER logo we have the writing "serial number" (small text) and the actual numbers (bolder text).
Therefore... could the Jag-stang had similar information underneath its FENDER logo?

I'm sceptic to think the small text being "made in U.S.A." because we know only the body was built there by Larry Brooks whilst the neck was built in Japan by Scott Zimmerman. Yet, the guitar was officially commissioned to Fender's Custom Shop, so we can't scratch this possible lettering at this point. Also, the text looks like being a single word... it's too damn hard to decipher.

I did a string tree(s) location layout throughout the two prototypes up to the production model along with a placeholder for the mysterious underlying text(s), as a reference for posterity.
Image

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by caivs » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Had to make an account to say wow -- bravo to you two! This thread is amazing. I'm at the very beginning of my offset guitar adventure and I've been lead to them of course by Mr. Kurt Cobain so I'm really loving all of the stuff happening in this thread. I love toiling over the minutiae of things and discovering the steps and processes of how things came to be, which is something you guys have done marvelously.

I don't know if this is something that you'd be interested in, but I think it would be awesome to compile a PDF or a blog post or something like that, telling the whole story of what exactly happened here with pictures and diagrams. It would make an amazing reference for those conducting research in the future. Thank you and everyone who helped with measuring or anything else to make this one of the best threads I've ever come across!

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:35 pm

caivs wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:10 pm
Had to make an account to say wow -- bravo to you two! This thread is amazing. I'm at the very beginning of my offset guitar adventure and I've been lead to them of course by Mr. Kurt Cobain so I'm really loving all of the stuff happening in this thread. I love toiling over the minutiae of things and discovering the steps and processes of how things came to be, which is something you guys have done marvelously.

I don't know if this is something that you'd be interested in, but I think it would be awesome to compile a PDF or a blog post or something like that, telling the whole story of what exactly happened here with pictures and diagrams. It would make an amazing reference for those conducting research in the future. Thank you and everyone who helped with measuring or anything else to make this one of the best threads I've ever come across!
Thanks! I really appreciate it. I know a lot of the pics I posted are no longer up. I have been meaning to replace them, but I've been dealing with some serious family emergencies, and I just haven't had the time. But stay tuned to this thread. We have some new information coming soon.

When everything is all said an done, I will make sure to compile the whole story in one single post, pictures and all, at the very end of this adventure. From there, if anyone would like to take this information and spread it to every possible blog, nirvana fan site or group, I highly encourage it.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by timtam » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:29 pm

caivs wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:10 pm
I don't know if this is something that you'd be interested in, but I think it would be awesome to compile a PDF or a blog post or something like that, telling the whole story of what exactly happened here with pictures and diagrams. It would make an amazing reference for those conducting research in the future. Thank you and everyone who helped with measuring or anything else to make this one of the best threads I've ever come across!
This highlights one of the serious problems with the forum model for assembling information in a way that will be easily accessible for long-term use into the future. There is important information buried in threads all over this forum. Some of it has found its way into the library sub-forum and even wikipedia pages, but there is limited coordination of information there, and so important stuff is mostly just buried. It would be great if there was an 'offset wiki' that could be attached to this forum, that we could all contribute to keeping up to date. Anyone know how to do that ? ;)
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:53 am

Well, ladies and gents, I think this mystery is pretty much wrapped up.

I recently spoke with member Jarman, (please, do not bother them with messages and questions) who actually saw the guitar in person, and they helped fill in some blanks.

First off, the writing under the decal says "custom". Once this information became available, I knew that I had seen this decal before. You may know that I have been working on restoring the history of the jagstang, but I have done this with a lot of vintage era Fender instruments as well. I began digging through my files and I found it. The Fender Custom Shop will not put a new model name on a guitar until they have trademarked it, so with the knowledge that the neck was finished in 24 hours, the CS would have had to use a decal that was readily available and on hand, and that is exactly what they did. I showed this picture to Jarman and it was confirmed to be a match. Fender used the 1959-64 Custom Telecaster logo, cutting off the word Telecaster and slightly shifting the word "Custom" to the right to make it appear better centered or to give the illusion that the decal was truly custom. Amon made a mockup of the headstock with string tree locations that you can see here. Below that is the decal that was used.

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Also, it was revealed that Peter Buck also replaced the tuners with modern 10mm tuners. While we will likely never know which, this was believed to have been done the same time the second tree was added. You can see the tuners were changed in the Let Me In video.

Now, to squash a myth. There has always been a myth that Kurt hated the guitar because it didn't have contours. I wont say that a Jagstang wouldn't have shown up with contours eventually if Kurt had lived, and I think he was kind of disappointed with the slab body at first, but I think he reached a point where it didn't matter whether it had them or not. If you don't tell the custom shop what you want, you don't get it. And while I think that initially, he forgot to bring up contours, if he had been that irritated by the lack of them, he would have said something about it for Red. But he didn't, and that leads me to believe that he no longer cared about them. Instead, he complained about the overall shape.

The last render Amon made really caught Jarman's eye, and he told me that we are incredibly close. There were only two minor things mentioned, one being a flat spot on the pickguard between the neck and mustang horn, which we have noted in earlier revisions, and the color. The color is incredibly close, and the guitar has aged a bit, but without ever seeing the guitar in natural light, we will never actually know for sure. But it does mean that Larry's comments and Jason Smith's comments are absolutely spot on. We are in the realms of a daphne blue and we are right in the ball park of where it belongs. Unless we ever see it in normal lighting, I think this is as far as we can go.

I also want to make a correction about the neck. I was under the impression it was a slab board neck. Reality is, with it being an MG69 neck, it is actually considered a veneer fretboard that is 3mm thick, meaning the side dots are black. So I have corrected this as follows:

Alder body, 1/4" roundover radius, 1.75" thick
24" scale
Mustang hardware from Japan.
1 ply pickguard, 8 hole
DiMarzo H8 (bridge), right handed Texas Special (neck)
Wired like a standard Mustang
250k pots, .047 capacitor
Maple neck, veneer rosewood fretboard
Pearloid fret dots, black side dots
.82 at first fret, .91 at the 12th
CBS headstock
Gotoh vintage style tuners
7.25" radius fretboard
6230 fret wire
1.575" nut width (40mm)
Neck pocket 5/8" deep, 3" long, 2 3/16" wide
Pickup depths are vintage spec 5/8"
Control cavity about 1.25"
Switch depth about 1.25"
Custom daphne blue finish
High poly gloss body and neck
Modified Fender Custom Telecaster decal applied
Blank neck plate, no serial. Larry stamped every guitar he built numerically in the neck pocket. Number is unknown.

Mods made after received:

Wiring changes. Humbucker is on in both positions of bridge switch (no phase). Neck functions as normal.
Schaller strap locks
SH-4 Seymour Duncan JB
Tremolo blocked, tail piece flipped
Gotoh ABR-1 bridge installed
Mustang switches chopped down to just above the pickguard.
Control plate drilled to accommodate 500k CTS pots. Capacitor remains the same.
Second string tree added by Peter Buck
Unknown 10mm tuners installed by Peter Buck.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:12 am

How did Jarman get a look at it?
Be great if he got some pics.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:11 am

CROSS_guitars wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:12 am
How did Jarman get a look at it?
Be great if he got some pics.
Jarman was shown the guitar by Peter Buck.

Jarman did see the last render. There were two things pointed out. There is a slight flat spot on the pickguard, and the color was still a bit off, but it was deemed as being close.

There were talks about sharing a picture in private, but thus far, it hasn't occurred and it may not due to certain circumstances. I agree that it would be awesome to have a pic of it, especially under natural light, but at this point, I can't miss what I never had. If they do decide to share it, I'd be forever in their debt. If not, I completely understand. It's just one of those things.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by stitch » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:13 am

Wow, what a thread. I was looking into making my own Jag-stang on CAD and machining one, and I stumbled on this. Had to make an account just because. I think it's safe to say I'm going to make an In Utero tour replica now.

For the neck, since it's an MG69, do you have/know where I can find good reference documents for making one of those on CAD?

Cheers

Edit: Do you also have any images of the prototype's routing? I tried to line up the wood cut body early in this thread but it didn't match at all.
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:22 pm

stitch wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:13 am

For the neck, since it's an MG69, do you have/know where I can find good reference documents for making one of those on CAD?

Do you also have any images of the prototype's routing? I tried to line up the wood cut body early in this thread but it didn't match at all.
You'll have to probably wait for Amon to reply in regards to these questions. I'm primarily research.

But I can tell you that we have no internal photos of the jagstang prototypes routing. However, we do have the depths for the pickup routes. According to some former master builders, they were using specific tolerances with their cnc machine and they can be found in this thread. Over all, it is essentially a slightly modified mustang route. No additional routing was done internally in the time Cobain owned it. Can't speak for Buck. I don't know if any of that helped or not, but it is the best I can offer at the moment.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by stitch » Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:56 pm

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:22 pm
stitch wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:13 am

For the neck, since it's an MG69, do you have/know where I can find good reference documents for making one of those on CAD?

Do you also have any images of the prototype's routing? I tried to line up the wood cut body early in this thread but it didn't match at all.
You'll have to probably wait for Amon to reply in regards to these questions. I'm primarily research.

But I can tell you that we have no internal photos of the jagstang prototypes routing. However, we do have the depths for the pickup routes. According to some former master builders, they were using specific tolerances with their cnc machine and they can be found in this thread. Over all, it is essentially a slightly modified mustang route. No additional routing was done internally in the time Cobain owned it. Can't speak for Buck. I don't know if any of that helped or not, but it is the best I can offer at the moment.
Darn, any drawings of Amon's internals would be appreciated. As I said I tried drawing over one of the images but it didn't line up right and so I scrapped it. I did find Mustang internals but I'm not sure if any trouble was encountered and would like to get it right the first time around as I do not have a pin-router to use.
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