Jagstang question

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AcrylicSuperman
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Jagstang question

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:06 pm

I am currently planning out a replica jagstang build of the sonic blue prototype and I have every detail I need except for one, which happens to be the neck thickness. According to the man who made the necks for Kurt's Jagstangs, they were a clone of the necks that he used on the in utero mustangs, but more specifically, the blue mustang that resides in the rock hall of fame. I was wondering if anyone has a first run fender jagstang that would be willing to take caliper measurements of the 1st and 12th frets for me, as those necks were supposed to he clones of that neck as well.

Thank you for your time and hopefully your reply.

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Amon 7.L
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Re: Jagstang question

Post by Amon 7.L » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:34 am

Very late reply but this is what I've measured when I had one around (it was a lefty, so definitely a first run):

Nut width: 40mm;
1st fret thickness: 21.4mm;
12th fret thickness: 24.40mm.

For the sake of it, I compared it with my lefty mustang 69RI (2002 run) and it was virtually identical both in measurements and feeling.

P.S.:
Being the Jag-stang prototype a very different beast from the production model, do you mind sharing the template?

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Re: Jagstang question

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:03 pm

Amon 7.L wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:34 am
Very late reply but this is what I've measured when I had one around (it was a lefty, so definitely a first run):

Nut width: 40mm;
1st fret thickness: 21.4mm;
12th fret thickness: 24.40mm.

For the sake of it, I compared it with my lefty mustang 69RI (2002 run) and it was virtually identical both in measurements and feeling.

P.S.:
Being the Jag-stang prototype a very different beast from the production model, do you mind sharing the template?
Awesome! Thank you so much.

Unfortunately, I do not have a template for it. How I decided to go about this is by blowing up an image of his cardboard cut out. I figured that will be as close as I can possibly get. I know there is definitely differences between the blue and the red. I'm guessing his cardboard cut out was the revisions for the red one. Unfortunately, unless someone knows Peter Buck and Peter is willing to trace the original blue body, we will never really know for sure what the original shape was. So I guess it will really be the red body shape with everything else to blue prototype specs.

If you have any questions about the blue prototype specs though, I'll be happy to answer it.

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Re: Jagstang question

Post by Amon 7.L » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:23 am

You're welcome, my friend.

Unfortunally, using those cardboard cutouts won't give you great help into getting close to the real thing... I started the same project (veeeery slooowly) 2 years ago using the same method and tweaking things here and there using the few online images in which Cobain was actually playing the jagstang.
In short: live action prototype and its counterpart cardboard do not match. Same deal with cardboard revision vs red production model.
Main obvious areas are:
1) lower horn (is based off a Mustang's but, the inner cutaway is much deeper, the horn is pointier and the lower side is tweaked)
2) control plate is at a different angle compared to a standard Mustang position;
3) the lower bout is waaay fatter.

I did an obscene number of photoshop/CAD overlays so far and I'm still tweaking things out.

Your suggestion is the only pratical solution: if some fellow member can reach out to Peter Buck via instagram or any other viable channel and get us a tracing or a straight picture of the real thing, we can work it out once for all.


P.S.:
Today or tomorrow I might start a tread about the reverse engineering of this guitar, so.. any detail you can provide will get us both closer our goal :D

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Re: Jagstang question

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:29 am

Amon 7.L wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:23 am
You're welcome, my friend.

Unfortunally, using those cardboard cutouts won't give you great help into getting close to the real thing... I started the same project (veeeery slooowly) 2 years ago using the same method and tweaking things here and there using the few online images in which Cobain was actually playing the jagstang.
In short: live action prototype and its counterpart cardboard do not match. Same deal with cardboard revision vs red production model.
Main obvious areas are:
1) lower horn (is based off a Mustang's but, the inner cutaway is much deeper, the horn is pointier and the lower side is tweaked)
2) control plate is at a different angle compared to a standard Mustang position;
3) the lower bout is waaay fatter.

I did an obscene number of photoshop/CAD overlays so far and I'm still tweaking things out.

Your suggestion is the only pratical solution: if some fellow member can reach out to Peter Buck via instagram or any other viable channel and get us a tracing or a straight picture of the real thing, we can work it out once for all.


P.S.:
Today or tomorrow I might start a tread about the reverse engineering of this guitar, so.. any detail you can provide will get us both closer our goal :D
I've been trying to find a way to reach out to peter for ages but he is a difficult person to find.

Sounds like you have a much better understanding of the actually prototype body shapes than I do. I did notice the prototypes were different. I was hoping the cardboard cut out could me closer at least.

I found out from Scott Zimmerman that Kurt wanted a couple Mustangs from Fender USA, but Fender USA didn't have the means to make the hardware at the time, so they ordered via Fender Japan. Fender Japan refused to ship just a couple and made Kurt order 10 Mustangs. 5 sonic blue, 5 fiesta red. 6 of these guitars were shipped to him before his death (4 sonic blue, 2 fiesta red).

My research indicated that his goal of the Jagstang was to have the comfort of both shapes, the playability of his mustangs, with some features of his Jaguar. I genuinely believe that he wanted his Jaguar neck cloned but because of it's specs, Fender refused to do it. I was able to trace who built the Jaguar neck and the maker provided me with its specs. I can tell you that the Fender replica of his Jaguar isn't accurate. And honestly, the Jaguar neck specs make more sense on the Jagstang than the Mustang necks that were used. I promised the individual in question that I wouldn't release those specs, but lets just say it works a lot better with a TOM than a 7.25" radius.

According to Scott Zimmerman, the Fender Custom Shop sent a request for two unfinished Mustang necks from Japan. He personally made them to the SkyStang neck specks. Which were a slightly modified version of the then 69 RI necks.

Electronically, the hardware also came from Japan. Sources told me that the blue prototype had 250k pots and a .047 capacitor, just like the Mustangs, however, at Kurt's request, the bridge pickup switch is wired on/off/on and the neck pickup is the normal on/off/phase.

The legend states that the guitar had a DiMarzio H-3 in the bridge and a Texas Special bridge pickup in the neck. The Texas Special is correct. According to Earnie Bailey, the humbucker was actually a DiMarzio H-8. He swapped it out for a white Seymour Duncan JB, SH-4, and put the H-8 in the SD box on the day of MTV Unplugged. I have a picture or two of it and the box from American Musical Supply. I'll find it and post it.

Maybe with our knowledge combined, we can make this guitar come back to life.

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Image

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Re: Jagstang question

Post by Amon 7.L » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:57 pm

I really enjoyed your enlightment on matters that for most part have been obscure, vague, misleading and/or sometimes completely false if not just wrongly reported.
I nonetheless respect your given word and I won't be asking any further details about the jaguar's neck specs but it truly does make a lot of sense that the original specs where more on point with a TOM bridge you'd defaulted find in his mustang/jagstang equipment instead of the unexplainable way things where handled. I mean, if Fender were building a CUSTOM guitar, why not just use requested components from the start instead of providing a product that Ernie Bailey had to modify as soon as the guitars where going to be used on live performance.
AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:29 am
Maybe with our knowledge combined, we can make this guitar come back to life.
I'm 100% with you on this and just to be fair and not to hijack your thread, I'd ask you if we can continue this project developement here or do you think I should start a new one as I anticipated?

I can't wait to start and see what can we do :w00t:

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Re: Jagstang question

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:32 pm

There is definitely a lot of inaccuracy in Kurt's gear. As for the Jagstang, I can understand the pickups situation as Fender was under contract with DiMarzio at the time, but Kurt definitely didn't get the guitar he wanted. If I were Kurt, I would have been absolutely pissed if I spent that kind of money on a guitar, or rather two guitars, from the Fender Custom Shop and didn't get what I wanted. Sure, the body shape was experimental, but the fundamental aspect of it got screwed up because Fender couldn't do the job. I think that Kurt knew that the TOM and neck combo on the Jaguar worked but didn't understand why. And I think that to an extent, his Mustangs used a TOM to try to replicate the success of his Jaguar. He just didn't understand fretboard radius and expected that Fender could solve that mystery. Instead, Fender Japan screwed everything up from afar. I assume the TOM would have happened had they cloned the Jaguar neck, but since they got Mustang necks instead with the vintage radius, they must have assumed the original bridge was the correct way to go.
Amon 7.L wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:57 pm
I'm 100% with you on this and just to be fair and not to hijack your thread, I'd ask you if we can continue this project developement here or do you think I should start a new one as I anticipated?

I can't wait to start and see what can we do :w00t:
Might as well make a new thread. This one has technically served it's purpose. Lol

Edit: Also, I was looking at a pic of the blue prototype. Is it possible that they used a Mustang guard for that one? While it does seem like the body shape shifted a little, it almost looks like the original guard wasn't quite what we know as a jagstang pickguard and they may also partially explain why the control plates are in different places.

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Image

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Re: Jagstang question

Post by Amon 7.L » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:24 am

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:32 pm

Edit: Also, I was looking at a pic of the blue prototype. Is it possible that they used a Mustang guard for that one? While it does seem like the body shape shifted a little, it almost looks like the original guard wasn't quite what we know as a jagstang pickguard and they may also partially explain why the control plates are in different places.

Image
I'm just about starting to write the new thread and I can anticipate you that YES, even thou the prototype doesn't have a 1:1 Mustang pickguard, that is the base of the shape, but.. you'll see it shifts A LOT by the time the general lower horn outlines morphes into jagstang. Furthermore, the production model is another variation.

Stay tuned, I'll be posting things in the next hours :)

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