New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Debaser » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:43 am

Deed_Poll wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:29 am
Hey Bob, to answer your concerns there's absolutely no way breaking a string will release the saddle :) it's totally locked in.

Hi Debaser, check out the second page - I've since altered the design to lock from the top :)
Excellent! ;D

You now have combined elements of a rocking bar bridge (milled metal, solid contact, no loose parts), the well intended Jazzmaster bridge design, and even used a leetle Melita with the movable, lockable saddles that are adjustable from the top. Well done!

Before you take my monee, I still think the 45 degree set screws are the weak link. Rattles will potentially come from this spot, as the string vibrations could work a tightened screw loose, and I would think over-tightening this screw would not be a good idea either, depending on your materials. This has been the case for Mastery and Mat Wilson’s Embie bridge, IME. Will you be offering different saddle materials? And the base itself, what material will you be milling?
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by invisible man » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:31 am

I wonder if cutting a V-shaped slot out of the vertical wall of the slot holding the bridge in place such that the set screw would press against a flat surface would be feasible? That could eliminate the issue of fouling the sides of the slot at various points, but would not change the nature of the forces applied. Very rough drawing highlights additional slot-within-a-slot in red.

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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by will » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:40 am

If you cut a slot in the bottom of the saddle, and have the allen screw press on the inside of the slot, the saddle would lock into the bridge base, and there wouldn't be concerns of the bridge base getting marred - since the allen screw would be always pressing the same spot on the saddle.

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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Steadyriot. » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:04 am

Any updates?! 8)
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by PJazzmaster » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:53 pm

Steadyriot. wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:04 am
Any updates?! 8)
:)

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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Ben17e » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:22 pm

I mostly like the design. However, are the saddles perhaps too low? Meaning that depending on where they are adjusted to, do you think there is a risk of a typical offset vibrato placement causing the strings to hit the back of the bridge?

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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by soggy mittens » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:40 pm

mmm I think to find the most universally likeable approach would be to ensure easy access to intonation screws while keeping it simple to keep down costs and avoid any potential for vibrational issues. That is where the gold is and what makes the Staytrem so miraculous. So something like the Staytrem but instead of barrels keeping with the mushroom head idea to give it unique character and to avoid any overt similarities.
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Deed_Poll » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:13 pm

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Hello all,

I finally have some more progress to share on the TuffseT Bridge! Sorry to those who have been waiting patiently that it has taken so long - I had an old colleague from the university I worked at tackle the task of 5-axis toolpathing and he was getting on with it "off the books" as and when he could.

He assures me that the hard bit is over and any issues can now be ironed out quite rapidly - the big challenge was how to fix the saddles to the machine for the complex milling operations and getting a clean release, and from this point forward I can change dimensions here and there quite easily.

The "bad stuff" first - though I think it's all fixable!

First I need to look into the best way to affix the cylindrical posts (threaded interior) to the main body of the bridge so they don't want to turn on their axis when I tighten up the post height locking set screws and post caps (the big domed flat-head mushroom screws above the posts). I managed to get it all tightened up to test it by clamping the posts, but obviously that's not an option in context of being mounted to a guitar for height adjustment purposes.

This prototype bridge body is machined from aluminium, but we could do stainless steel next and I think that's what we'll do. The locking set screw for the saddle is leaving marks on the inside of the aluminium trough since it wants to be dialed in pretty tight, so I think I should use something harder. The bridge itself is very lightweight, perhaps too lightweight.

The best method of fixing the posts to the main body of the bridge will depend on this materials choice - there might be welding or soldering / braising options there, or I might have to use an epoxy resin bond. A ribbed flange and contact fit might be an option if I have some posts specially made, but that could be a big extra unnecessary cost.

The "floor" of the saddle slots is too high, because of where the saddle locking set screw passes through the saddle. It's very nearly correct (within 0.1mm) but just that tiny difference is meaning that the set screw is making contact with the "floor" before it locks onto the "wall" (as per the design) so the saddle is lifting slightly before tightening, which is obviously a big no-no. I'm confident after messing with it for a long time that changing the design so that the "floor" goes straight through the bottom of the bridge body will solve this problem, and probably look better as well. The only issue being that it will rob the body of some torsional stability (turning it into a kind of ladder frame), which could be solved by making the piece from stainless steel or making the bridge thicker, or both.

The interior threaded "posts" are fairly decent, but they have been threaded from each end and the threads don't precisely line up in the middle. It's crazy how difficult it has been to find decent interior threaded rod! The search continues, but these will work provided you feed the "spikes" the posts sit on in from the bottom. They can't be driven through the top. Strangely though, because the locking set screws that lock these spikes into place are so short, they will happily cross the transition from one thread to another, so it doesn't actually affect operation. I still don't like it and the search continues for better posts (and might mean having some made, hence my ruminations about engineering a flanged end). These suit my purposes for now, however, and any improved part I can find or engineer will act as an interchangeable part, so I feel like I can tackle that later.

The whole thing needs a jolly good polish since I can still see the machining marks. It's a beautiful piece, don't get me wrong, but I want these to be bright and perfect and gleaming! I need to look into how I'm going to buff them up.

Ok, on to the good stuff!

The concept seems to work brilliantly. When it's all tightened together, you can really throw the thing around, toss it on the table etc. and you will never hear a rattle, even without any string tension on it. It's totally inert, like handling a stop tailpiece! That makes me excited to get one on a guitar.

Adam (the CNC guy) tells me that with this toolpath we can make saddles from brass, steel, aluminium or titanium - or pretty much anything we want. I look forward to playing around with different materials, even mixing and matching on different strings and seeing what effect that has on the sound.

The various fixings, bolts and set screws are all precisely the right size and line up flush with the design. Notwithstanding what I said about polish and surface finish, it really looks and feels like a quality piece and I think the combination of neutral vintage lines but with some modern sophistication have resulted in a design that works visually and (from what I can tell with just the one saddle) ergonomically as well. The saddle set screws are rebated with a chamfer around the hole, and your hand will only touch smooth polished metal when playing. They're also completely invisible from a playing position.

I think the design would work aesthetically on many different guitar types, so I've been thinking hard about the possibility of making a version to retrofit Les Pauls and other models. I think it would work particularly well (even in a non-rocking variant) for guitars with trapeze tailpieces like ES330s, Epiphone Casinos and Sheratons and some '60s ES335s. The reason being that guitars with a shallow bridge break angle do not impart a strong force either downwards or longitudinally, and this means the loose thread-to-thread contact on intonation adjustment in particular can cause rattles and losses.

So my way forward as of now is to have another bridge body made, maybe a millimetre deeper and from stainless steel, and with the slot "floors" cut clear through the bridge. If that solves the lifting issue, I'll have a full set of saddles made and try it out on a Jazzmaster!

Anyway, I hope you're all well and I expect the next update will be sooner than this one was! Cheers

Dan
Owner Operator of GuitarForm - Custom Offset Guitar Bodies
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by MechaBulletBill » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:19 pm

not much to contribute other than to say WOW, well done, great work, excited to see further developments :)

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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Deed_Poll » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:30 pm

Ben17e wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:22 pm
I mostly like the design. However, are the saddles perhaps too low? Meaning that depending on where they are adjusted to, do you think there is a risk of a typical offset vibrato placement causing the strings to hit the back of the bridge?
Thanks for your question! Sorry to answer it 2 months late. But it's interesting, the saddles are actually higher than they look and a challenge of the design has been to keep the body of the bridge thin enough that the overall profile (from bridge "floor" up to string break point) as low as the original offset bridge. I've actually managed to thin it down slightly from the original, which is just as well because Jazzmaster and Jaguar bridges obviously sit on top of the pickguard as well, and I've seen dozens of Jazzmasters whose bridges are arguably too low and borderline rubbing on the pickguard.

I have a pet theory that one of the reasons so many Jazzmasters and Jaguars have shimmed necks is as much because the tech ran out of adjustment to lower the bridge (action still too high at minimum) as because the break angle is too shallow and causing the bridge to buzz. But I don't know whether that's actually the case!

So to answer your question, no. There's probably a kind of optical illusion where rounded saddles look lower than they are and actually it will have loads of room for the string to pass over the bridge body because it's quite thin :)

Cheers!
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Embenny » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:30 pm

Very happy to see the progress you've made on this.

At first, I thought I'd never want to have to take a bridge off to adjust intonation. But recently, I've been doing seasonal maintenance on my guitars and I realized that I have to take all the string tension off of them to adjust the intonation screws anyway, and unlike TOMs, offset bridges pop right out and back in again without fear of losing your dialed-in action (vs my TOMs with thumbwheels, to take those off you totally lose whatever height setting you had previously dialed in).

I've also had issues with my stupidly expensive Mastery bridges rattling, and am more or less done with considering those as an option on my guitars. I love how this design has no extra springs or tiny screws to vibrate anywhere.

Edit: Jeez, I just noticed you don't even have a bottom-adjustment screw on this, it's on top!

I could definitely see myself buying these.
Last edited by Embenny on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by antisymmetric » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:33 pm

Fantastic work!! So much to think about doing this sort of thing which isn't obvious in the final product. 8)
Last edited by antisymmetric on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Deed_Poll » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:34 pm

will wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:40 am
If you cut a slot in the bottom of the saddle, and have the allen screw press on the inside of the slot, the saddle would lock into the bridge base, and there wouldn't be concerns of the bridge base getting marred - since the allen screw would be always pressing the same spot on the saddle.

Image
That's a really great design! I like that a lot. It might benefit from having the slot cut quite a bit further up into the saddle for more malleability, but you could cut that at an angle to set exactly where the string breaks 🤔

Very clever!
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Deed_Poll » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:49 pm

MechaBulletBill wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:19 pm
not much to contribute other than to say WOW, well done, great work, excited to see further developments :)
antisymmetric wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:33 pm
Fantastic work!! So much to think about doing this sort of thing which isn't obvious in the final product. 8)
Cheers guys! Your kind words are much appreciated :)
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Re: New Offset Bridge Design - the Toughset

Post by Deed_Poll » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:15 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:30 pm
Very happy to see the progress you've made on this.

At first, I thought I'd never want to have to take a bridge off to adjust intonation. But recently, I've been doing seasonal maintenance on my guitars and I realized that I have to take all the string tension off of them to adjust the intonation screws anyway, and unlike TOMs, offset bridges pop right out and back in again without fear of losing your dialed-in action (vs my TOMs with thumbwheels, to take those off you totally lose whatever height setting you had previously dialed in).

I've also had issues with my stupidly expensive Mastery bridges rattling, and am more or less done with considering those as an option on my guitars. I love how this design has no extra springs or tiny screws to vibrate anywhere.

Edit: Jeez, I just noticed you don't even have a bottom-adjustment screw on this, it's on top!

I could definitely see myself buying these.
Cheers! Yes, my original thought was for a bridge design where you make the sacrifice that it's harder to set up right first time, but that once it's done you can just treat it like a wraparound and just leave it that way unless you change string gauges or something. But feedback on this thread seemed to suggest that it's very valuable to people to be able to adjust the intonation while the strings are on, and I can see that this has huge advantages so I decided to take that into account and find another solution.

It's proven to be a bit trickier to implement than I'd hoped, but I'm confident I can get there in the end with the advantage that the general concept will be much more appealing to a broader market (we on these forums are very happy to take things apart and adjust things, much moreso than the general guitar playing public I think).

The Mastery is a great design in some ways. As well as dealing effectively with the other more avoidable problems, like the intonation screws heads and back rim of the bridge interfering with string path, I'd say it half deals with the core problem as I see it - that core problem being the lack of downward and longitudinal pressure placed on the bridge by string tension on guitars with a shallow break angle.

It does improve this by replacing six intonation screws with four, and twelve height adjustment set screws with four, so the pressure on each thread is higher. But to my mind it's the pressure on the threads that's the important aspect to reduce rattling (the weak link in the chain); not the pressure on each saddle (as the Mastery literature contends). By contrast, you can put hundreds or thousands of times more pressure on a thread by tightening it against something than under string tension because of the mechanical advantage afforded by a shallow thread pitch.

The Stay Trem is a beautiful piece and does not rattle at all, but I wonder whether the means it uses to do this (damping rattles with nylon fixings as opposed to tightening them) might ultimately rob some harmonics from the string, in the way that insulating a plenum chamber with fibreglass can "cut" the resonant frequency of the chamber from the room. Having said that, I can't say enough good things about the Stay Trem - it's truly excellent in appearance, quality and functionality, and if John hadn't decided to call it a day, I wouldn't have even tried to fix what ain't broke! In any case, the harmonics the nylon fittings on the Stay Trem rob from the string are likely to be the same harmonics that are squandered and turned into rattles on the original, so there's every reason to believe that the Stay Trem might prove to be the more authentic sounding option when all is said and done.

Having said that, once I'd decided to have a go, everything was on the table and I approached the challenge on its own merits and to see what comes out of the other end.
Last edited by Deed_Poll on Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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