Saylor Bodies

Talk about modding or building your own guitar from scratch.
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601210
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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by 601210 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:02 am

I did the pencil-and-sandpaper trick with a hemostat to keep the sandpaper in place, and went at it for like 2 hours. Problem was that the hole becomes tapered since you'll naturally put more pressure around the entrance of the hole. Eventually I could get the thimbles in, but they'd jam halfway through and no amount of hammering would get them in deeper.

So I got a brace drill (like so: https://cdn.axminster.co.uk/media/catal ... 195_xl.jpg) to drill out the remaining depth of the hole. I think this way worked out a bit better (albeit taking A LOT longer) because having the entrance of the hole be the proper size made it much easier to center the drill bit.

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nbc580
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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by nbc580 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:33 pm

Thanks for the info. I have access to a drill press, so sounds like that is the route to take. I tested a scrap piece of wood with a 3/8" bit and the thimble went in, but was loose. The size bit down from there is too small, so hopefully I can figure out the right size.

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timtam
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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by timtam » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:35 pm

601210 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:02 am
So I got a brace drill (like so: https://cdn.axminster.co.uk/media/catal ... 195_xl.jpg) to drill out the remaining depth of the hole. I think this way worked out a bit better (albeit taking A LOT longer) because having the entrance of the hole be the proper size made it much easier to center the drill bit.
That's exactly the type of hand drill I used too, to enlarge the thimble holes in a VM jag body. The required drill bit was only a tad bigger than the existing hole so it was quick and easy.

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by 601210 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:07 pm

nbc580 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:33 pm
Thanks for the info. I have access to a drill press, so sounds like that is the route to take. I tested a scrap piece of wood with a 3/8" bit and the thimble went in, but was loose. The size bit down from there is too small, so hopefully I can figure out the right size.
I think I used 9.5mm which is just a hair smaller. Apparently it's supposed to be a very tight fit, so if you have to tap it in a little bit (I had to use a small block of wood and a rubber mallet, but I'm not sure if that's recommended) it should be alright.

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by nbc580 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:53 am

601210 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:07 pm
nbc580 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:33 pm
Thanks for the info. I have access to a drill press, so sounds like that is the route to take. I tested a scrap piece of wood with a 3/8" bit and the thimble went in, but was loose. The size bit down from there is too small, so hopefully I can figure out the right size.
I think I used 9.5mm which is just a hair smaller. Apparently it's supposed to be a very tight fit, so if you have to tap it in a little bit (I had to use a small block of wood and a rubber mallet, but I'm not sure if that's recommended) it should be alright.
any idea where you got the 9.5mm bit? There is a home depot, lowes, menards, and ace locally, but their online searches don't find anything.

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by 601210 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:52 am

My local hardware store had it but I'm in a metric country.

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Telemnemonics
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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by Telemnemonics » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:53 am

My most often played guitar the past couple of years is a Saylor one piece ultra light weight alder hardtail Strat body with Fender neck, hand made three saddle bridge, and a JM bridge pickup.
Saylor routed for SSS and I added the JM routs, then routed a SSS guard for the JM pup.

While the body has some small deviations from what I expect, it works fine and was indeed a very good price for what could be made into a superb quality guitar.

WRT the Saylor Jazzmaster body needing some alterations to fit all currently standard Fender parts, I'll echo others who have pointed out that Fender has repeatedly changed dimensions and specs over the years, and also used different dimensions or specs at the same time in different factories.
Another point WRT the trem not fitting the cavity well, AFAIK originals got a bit of chisel work to square up for final fit.
Contours also varied quite a bit over the years, and in many cases originals are sharper while later production got more rounded.

In the end I find very few Fender made Fenders that I consider to be on spec.
Most Strat and Tele bodies are too fat, as are the current Tele headstock shapes.
Fender era Fenders were generally slimmer, but they seemingly got fatter over the years.

One thing about selling unfinished parts to the hobby builder is that if we don't have proper tools like drill presses and bit sets with the sizes we need, it's as much our fault as the builders who sold us unfinished parts.
Maybe poly vs lacquer finish gets confused with finishing a build, and we hope we get a $100 body that's ready for the spray can and the screwdriver on our kitchen table.
When I get parts drilled too big, that's when i get upset.

Those durn allparts necks that don't fit vintage tuner ferrules are a PITA, but fitting vintage tuners to necks drilled for Schallers is a bigger PITA.
Why does allparts sell necks and tuners that don't fit together?
I guess because there are other tuners we might buy that are smaller, and we want to end up with the right fit, no tape wrapped around parts that are too small.

Enlarging holes with sandpaper is a sign that the current builder is not prepared for building!
Yet we get through these challenges, and maybe after a few builds we buy a drill press and a good set of bits in smaller increments that what Home Depot has to offer. Then we are prepared for building!

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by kdanie » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:38 pm

Telemnemonics wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:53 am

Most Strat and Tele bodies are too fat, as are the current Tele headstock shapes.
TOO true, I have drawings showing the different strat & tele head stocks overlayed and there are TONS of them, all slightly different, some from different eras, some from signature models & some from different countries of mfg.

and some people think there are only "normal" strat headstocks and CBS headstocks....

ken
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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by j mascis » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:50 pm

Yeah, why are the Teles so fat now? Even my Dano mongrel/tele, which is awesome otherwise, could use a diet.

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by Telemnemonics » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:26 pm

j mascis wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:51 pm
tribi9 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:51 pm
Neck holes looked a bit wonky on one i bought. The dude got all defensive when i questioned it, the holes for the bridge were too small too.
That sounds right.

Now I'm nervous, because the last stage I have to this build is to bolt on the neck, and the neck is a quarter sawn/baked maple ($310 neck!). Maybe I should just sell it and get a more legit body. He builds in that 1 degree neck pocket angle, too, which I'm not sure is the best idea. I'd rather add a shim later if needed than have one built into the pocket.

How did everything turn out with your build?
So this was your last report on the build, did you continue with it?
Neck fit well?
Finished?
Neck angle make you happy? Seems like the way to go if you know you need some height to the bridge.

I'd bet it will be great when it's done, I assume it's alder and that was a nice light weight you got.
My alder Saylor body build is really good as a player and looks nice too, once the microscope view backs off a bit.

If you decide to sell it I might be interested but ATM I got no cash to spare.
Hopefully it's working out for you.

As far as why all the fat these days, no clue here...

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by Telemnemonics » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:32 pm

kdanie wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:38 pm
Telemnemonics wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:53 am

Most Strat and Tele bodies are too fat, as are the current Tele headstock shapes.
TOO true, I have drawings showing the different strat & tele head stocks overlayed and there are TONS of them, all slightly different, some from different eras, some from signature models & some from different countries of mfg.

and some people think there are only "normal" strat headstocks and CBS headstocks....

ken
It's funny, or actually it sucks, but some of the Squiers have a better Tele headstock shape than most US Fenders until CS pricing.
None of the Strat or JM headstocks look as clumsy as most of the current US Tele shapes.
I don't get it.

But I see lots of builds with GFS and other cheap import bodies and just groan at how bad the shapes often are, or how poorly the guards fit etc.
Maybe most people just don't scrutinize shapes?

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by 601210 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:28 am

Telemnemonics wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:32 pm
But I see lots of builds with GFS and other cheap import bodies and just groan at how bad the shapes often are, or how poorly the guards fit etc.
Maybe most people just don't scrutinize shapes?
I've yet to see a non-Fender Jazzmaster that didn't have a weird body shape, but I always thought it's because Leo patented the shape?

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by Telemnemonics » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:47 am

601210 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:28 am
Telemnemonics wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:32 pm
But I see lots of builds with GFS and other cheap import bodies and just groan at how bad the shapes often are, or how poorly the guards fit etc.
Maybe most people just don't scrutinize shapes?
I've yet to see a non-Fender Jazzmaster that didn't have a weird body shape, but I always thought it's because Leo patented the shape?
AFAIK Leo didn't patent any body or headstock shapes, and CBS didn't either.
Actually you can't patent a shape, but they can be trademarked.
Whoever it was, I guess CBS went to court in the early '80s to try to stop the import copy industry from stealing Fender's intellectual property, but it was pretty much too late. They were able to secure copyrights on the Strat, Tele and JM headstock shapes, which allows them to license the shapes to Warmoth and others.
But all the body shapes are in the public domain, unless some new ones got trademarked.

During that global court battle, Gibson and Floyd Rose did the same thing, because it was the point where cheap import copies were finally good enough to really cut into the US makers sales.
Partly also because Fender quality had lagged pretty badly for a few years and the rep was kinda ruined.

In a beautifully smart and ironic move, Fender asked some of the companies they had just sued, for bids on producing an import line called Squier.
So whichever Japanese guitar maker had been stealing Fenders intellectual property, and was willing to subcontract at an attractive price, was able to continue to make Fender copies and sell them to Fender, or sell them through Fender Japan, which was a slightly independent company.

Around this time we saw Tokai change the headstock from the earlier Fender shape to a slightly different shape, and then maybe a year later change the Tokai logo to put the front on the "T" so it looked less like a Fender logo "F".
Some time later Tokai got the contract to build Fenders in Japan.

And of course FMIC decided the Squiers were good enough so they had the Japanese factory start putting Fender decals on the Squiers, though they also continued to make changes to the MIJ line. But the first MIJ Fenders were pretty much exactly the same as the equivalent model Squiers before them.

As far as non Fender Jazzmaster bodies all looking wrong, IDK....

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by nbc580 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:51 pm

Since it wasn't exactly easy to find this information on the internet, I figured I'd post this in case anyone else is looking.

The USA bridge post thimbles (Part # 0054447049) are SLIGHTLY smaller than 3/8". I tested a scrap piece of wood with a 3/8" bit and the thimble slid in and out. In other words, not the snug fit you want.

More than likely what you need is a 9.5mm bit. And I mean an ACTUAL 9.5mm bit; you'll find many 3/8" bits labeled as 9.5mm... This is not an accurate conversion. 9.5mm is actually slightly less than 3/8":

3/8" = 0.375 inches
9.5mm = 0.374015... inches

While this seem negligible, it is probably the difference between the snug fit that you want (9.5mm bit) vs. too big of a hole (3/8" bit).

All of that being said, true 9.5mm bits aren't exactly easy to find in the USA. Home Depot, Menards, Lowes, Ace don't seem to carry them that I could find. As I couldn't find one, I'm not 1000% sure that a true 9.5mm bit would work, based on my research about drill bit sizes, this seemed to be the most likely candidate.

What I ended up doing was carefully using a dremel--one smaller than the size of the hole--and getting it to where the thimble would fit decently snug. One is a little looser than the other, but I think once the body is finished by MJT it will work fine.

I had zero luck with the rolled sandpaper method. I'm not patient enough for that, but if you are, that route is probably safer than dremeling.
Last edited by nbc580 on Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Saylor Bodies

Post by j mascis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:53 pm

Do you have access to a local public woodshop? Your city might have one.

I wonder what spec Saylor is drilling those to because it's not AVRI/US like he says.

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