Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)

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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)

Post by oid » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:30 pm

timtam wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:22 pm
And BTW there are actually scientific papers on whammy bars ... ;)
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0102088
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0184803
Of coarse there are, if you dig into university libraries and doctoral thesis you will find surprising amounts.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)

Post by timtam » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:40 pm

oid wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:28 pm
timtam wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:15 pm
oid wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:10 pm


Sure they are, there is nothing magic going on here, you may not find much in the way of scholarly papers specifically on guitar trem units, but the physics and mechanics of this sort of system are very well understood.
If the physics of solid body electric guitars were well understood there wouldn't be arguments about tone wood for solid body electric guitars.*

*oops, I forgot about religion. OK maybe people would still argue about electric solid body tone woods even if the physics were totally known. ;)
If you make the body out of a more regular material with less variation such as glass, it becomes very easy to predict how sound travels through it and the sound that results, the issue with wood is just that there is too much variation in the structure and measuring the qualities is quite a trick on its own, modeling the movement of vibration through that very complex structure would take more money and resources than anyone could justify.

If you want to talk the physics of tone, that is just the philosophy of perception in the end, but the sustain portion is simple enough, probably could get fairly acurate modeling in Solid Works, certainly ballpark figures.
But then there is the whole question of the extent to which vibration transmission through a solid body electic guitar's body and neck actually matters. It certainly does in an acoustic guitar, but the mechanism of sound production there is very different.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)

Post by oid » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:15 pm

timtam wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:40 pm
But then there is the whole question of the extent to which vibration transmission through a solid body electic guitar's body and neck actually matters. It certainly does in an acoustic guitar, but the mechanism of sound production there is very different.
The vibrations in the body are either destructive or they reinforce the vibration of the string regardless of weather it is a solid or hollow body. The only difference in the hollow body is that there are two interacting vibrating bodies, one made of air and one made of wood.. The air inside largely acts on bass frequencies and is much like a bass reflex speaker cab, the body acts on highs and is much like a vibrating diaphragm. that is greatly simplified of coarse, left out the neck as well.

Predictive text is really fighting me so that is as complicated as I will get without a proper computer.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)

Post by Debaser » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:52 pm

I would use felt washers, but even these sometimes can alter a lacquer finish, especially one that is still gassing off.

Concerning tone, I usually remove the felt on B16s and B5s, because 1) a Bigsby goes on and stays on; and 2) I want some extra downward angle behind the bridge. Sometimes, I wonder if people have negative Bigsby experiences (tone and stability) because of things like Bigsby frame flexing and mounting options like a Vibramate or felt washers. No, seriously! Now here's the question: does felt alter the tone? Hmm...zzzzzz :shifty:
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)

Post by timtam » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:17 pm

oid wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:15 pm
timtam wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:40 pm
But then there is the whole question of the extent to which vibration transmission through a solid body electic guitar's body and neck actually matters. It certainly does in an acoustic guitar, but the mechanism of sound production there is very different.
The vibrations in the body are either destructive or they reinforce the vibration of the string regardless of weather it is a solid or hollow body. The only difference in the hollow body is that there are two interacting vibrating bodies, one made of air and one made of wood.. The air inside largely acts on bass frequencies and is much like a bass reflex speaker cab, the body acts on highs and is much like a vibrating diaphragm. that is greatly simplified of coarse, left out the neck as well.

Predictive text is really fighting me so that is as complicated as I will get without a proper computer.
Indeed it can be destructive / negative. Yet amongst the many people who espouse the importance of how an electric guitar solid body resonates acoustically - for its electric amplified performance - there is an implicit assumption that resonance is always 'good'. In fact, neck resonance is the explanation for dead spots, ie a negative phenomenon eg
http://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs ... scher.html

Furthermore, on face value, the presence of vibrations in the body or neck are indicative of vibration loss from the strings (and string movement is what pickups actually 'see'), ie loss of sustain ...
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ic_guitars

But I would still contend that the extent to which vibration transmission to and through an electric solid body guitar is important to its amplified electric performance is as yet not well understood.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)

Post by oid » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:49 pm

timtam wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:17 pm
Indeed it can be destructive / negative. Yet amongst the many people who espouse the importance of how an electric guitar solid body resonates acoustically - for its electric amplified performance - there is an implicit assumption that resonance is always 'good'. In fact, neck resonance is the explanation for dead spots, ie a negative phenomenon eg
Resonance, the word as used by a musician, is very different than that word as used by luthiers (most), a neck with dead spots would not be considered as resonant as one without dead spots by the musician.
timtam wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:17 pm
Furthermore, on face value, the presence of vibrations in the body or neck are indicative of vibration loss from the strings (and string movement is what pickups actually 'see'), ie loss of sustain ...
Yes and no,that is the weight to sustain correlation taken beyond practicality. If the resonance reinforces the strings vibration you will increase sustain, this is ultimately what feedback is, or the wolf note of an acoustic guitar, which can both kill and increase sustain. The guitars body can return energy to the strings just as it can take it away, pluck your low E and the high E also vibrates. But we can not just look at sustain, we also need to look at harmonic structure, the vibration of the neck and body are killing and reinforcing overtones in the string and the other strings of the instrument, it forces an overall harmonic relation between the strings, which gives and instrument it's unique voice.

Find a hunk of a big steel I-beam and stretch some strings across it, not much character, but loads of sustain.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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