Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
- benifin
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Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Hi all
Putting aside whether or not a Bigsby on a JM is great or sacrilegious ....... here goes .....
Background
I was offered and took a deal on a Bigsby B5 + JM5 Vibramate at a great price figuring ..... why not give it a try ... I can always go back and sell the B5 - however unlike other Vibramate Plates, the Jazzmaster JM 5 (a) sits flat and flush on the body and (b) is larger than the factory "oval-ish" tremelo plate
Potential Problem that Im needing advice on
a => if I fit this plate and screw it on the body, surley / presumably it will leave a mark / indentation in the body finish when it is removed (?)
and
b => as the plate is bigger than the factory "oval-ish" tremelo plate, if / when I put the original Trem back on, it will no hide / cover the vibramate marks / indentations (?)
Advice Direct from Vibramate
I emailed them and they got straight back to me and suggested putting some thin metal washers around the 4 x Trem holes ....... this will solve a and b above however, wont de-coupling the plate from the body massively reduce string vibration through the body / sustain / tone (?)
Apart from dont even try the Bigsby ......... all thoughts / ideas suggestions much appreciated
Ben
Putting aside whether or not a Bigsby on a JM is great or sacrilegious ....... here goes .....
Background
I was offered and took a deal on a Bigsby B5 + JM5 Vibramate at a great price figuring ..... why not give it a try ... I can always go back and sell the B5 - however unlike other Vibramate Plates, the Jazzmaster JM 5 (a) sits flat and flush on the body and (b) is larger than the factory "oval-ish" tremelo plate
Potential Problem that Im needing advice on
a => if I fit this plate and screw it on the body, surley / presumably it will leave a mark / indentation in the body finish when it is removed (?)
and
b => as the plate is bigger than the factory "oval-ish" tremelo plate, if / when I put the original Trem back on, it will no hide / cover the vibramate marks / indentations (?)
Advice Direct from Vibramate
I emailed them and they got straight back to me and suggested putting some thin metal washers around the 4 x Trem holes ....... this will solve a and b above however, wont de-coupling the plate from the body massively reduce string vibration through the body / sustain / tone (?)
Apart from dont even try the Bigsby ......... all thoughts / ideas suggestions much appreciated
Ben
- Larry Mal
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
- benifin
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Yep !
You can see from the pics in the link you posted that the Vibramate JM5 Plate is bigger than the existing JM Trem top-plate - specifically, in the link, look at the pic in the " Step 1 " box and compare it to the pic in the " Step 2 " box
Ben
You can see from the pics in the link you posted that the Vibramate JM5 Plate is bigger than the existing JM Trem top-plate - specifically, in the link, look at the pic in the " Step 1 " box and compare it to the pic in the " Step 2 " box
Ben
- oid
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
You are not decoupling it, decoupling it would be suspending it on springs or the like, it is still very much coupled.
Likely it would be a wash, with no noticeable change (washers vs none, not jm trem vs bigsby), the screws do the work and as long as they are snugged down the bigsby can not vibrate independent of the guitar, coupling does not change.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.
- benifin
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
I would have thought the difference in sustain and tone between (a) the whole Vibramate sitting flush on the body between the Bigsby and the body -vs- (b) the Vibramate sitting on 4 small flat washers between it and the body .... would be a big difference in sustain and tone (?)oid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:30 pmYou are not decoupling it, decoupling it would be suspending it on springs or the like, it is still very much coupled.
Likely it would be a wash, with no noticeable change (washers vs none, not jm trem vs bigsby), the screws do the work and as long as they are snugged down the bigsby can not vibrate independent of the guitar, coupling does not change.
My apologies if I am missing something - this is not an area where I am super-knowledgable
Ben
- Larry Mal
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Regardless I feel like if you are putting washers underneath a plate that you are screwing to the body, then the washers will leave witness lines in the finish themselves, won't they? It's not looking to me like those would be covered up by the original plate should you go back to that, would they?
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
- benifin
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Thanks The witness lines will be covered up by the original Trem top as long as the washers used dont extend past the outer perimeter of the original trem top - I think this will be do-able.Larry Mal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:48 pmRegardless I feel like if you are putting washers underneath a plate that you are screwing to the body, then the washers will leave witness lines in the finish themselves, won't they? It's not looking to me like those would be covered up by the original plate should you go back to that, would they?
Im more worried about any possible sustain / tone issues of the Vibramate only "vibrating" against the JM body via 4 small washers as opposed to "vibrating" against the body with its entire base flush with the JM body (?)
Thnaks again,
Ben
- oid
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Ok, I will put it into guitar speak, the vibramate mounted on washers makes contact with the guitar at four points and screws into the body at those four points, that is twice as many anchor points as a stop tail piece so you should have twice as much sustain as any Led Paul.benifin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:39 pmI would have thought the difference in sustain and tone between (a) the whole Vibramate sitting flush on the body between the Bigsby and the body -vs- (b) the Vibramate sitting on 4 small flat washers between it and the body .... would be a big difference in sustain and tone (?)
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.
- benifin
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Thanksoid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:50 pmOk, I will put it into guitar speak, the vibramate mounted on washers makes contact with the guitar at four points and screws into the body at those four points, that is twice as many anchor points as a stop tail piece so you should have twice as much sustain as any Led Paul.benifin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:39 pmI would have thought the difference in sustain and tone between (a) the whole Vibramate sitting flush on the body between the Bigsby and the body -vs- (b) the Vibramate sitting on 4 small flat washers between it and the body .... would be a big difference in sustain and tone (?)
- timtam
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Don't apologize. The problem is there is not much hard knowledge to be had. The best you will get is opinions ... a mix of experience, logic, folklore, bias (some of which you may be channelling ) ... but no science ... because the physics of such things are not well understood, and no one has done a double-blind experiment. At one extreme some people will probably tell you 'Are you mad ? You'll destroy everything that makes the JM sound great !'. On the other extreme 'It won't make any difference'.benifin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:39 pmI would have thought the difference in sustain and tone between (a) the whole Vibramate sitting flush on the body between the Bigsby and the body -vs- (b) the Vibramate sitting on 4 small flat washers between it and the body .... would be a big difference in sustain and tone (?)
My apologies if I am missing something - this is not an area where I am super-knowledgable
If you want to satisfy yourself, do an experiment to test your hypothesis. Get a friend to play the JM with the standard trem and record it, without you within earshot. Then fit the Vibramate and get them to record the same pieces, again when you can can't hear it. Then listen to the two unlabelled recordings without knowing which was which. You decide if you can hear a difference, and then get your friend to tell you which was which.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.
- benifin
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Excellent suggestion I think that is exactly what I will do !!!!!!timtam wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:02 pmDon't apologize. The problem is there is not much hard knowledge to be had. The best you will get is opinions ... a mix of experience, logic, folklore, bias (some of which you may be channelling ) ... but no science ... because the physics of such things are not well understood, and no one has done a double-blind experiment. At one extreme some people will probably tell you 'Are you mad ? You'll destroy everything that makes the JM sound great !'. On the other extreme 'It won't make any difference'.benifin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:39 pmI would have thought the difference in sustain and tone between (a) the whole Vibramate sitting flush on the body between the Bigsby and the body -vs- (b) the Vibramate sitting on 4 small flat washers between it and the body .... would be a big difference in sustain and tone (?)
My apologies if I am missing something - this is not an area where I am super-knowledgable
If you want to satisfy yourself, do an expriment to test your hypothesis. Get a friend to play the JM with the standard trem and record it, without you within earshot. Then fit the Vibramate and get them to record the same pieces, again when you can can't hear it. Then listen to the two unlabelled recordings without knowing which was which. You decide if you can hear a difference, and then get your friend to tell you which was which.
Thanks,
Ben
- oid
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
Sure they are, there is nothing magic going on here, you may not find much in the way of scholarly papers specifically on guitar trem units, but the physics and mechanics of this sort of system are very well understood.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.
- timtam
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
If the physics of solid body electric guitars were well understood there wouldn't be arguments about tone wood for solid body electric guitars.*
*oops, I forgot about religion. OK maybe people would still argue about electric solid body tone woods even if the physics were totally known.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.
- timtam
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
And BTW there are actually scientific papers on whammy bars ...
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0102088
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0184803
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0102088
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0184803
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.
- oid
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Re: Bigsby + JM5 Vibramate on a Jazzmaster .... need some advice please .... (?)
If you make the body out of a more regular material with less variation such as glass, it becomes very easy to predict how sound travels through it and the sound that results, the issue with wood is just that there is too much variation in the structure and measuring the qualities is quite a trick on its own, modeling the movement of vibration through that very complex structure would take more money and resources than anyone could justify.timtam wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:15 pmIf the physics of solid body electric guitars were well understood there wouldn't be arguments about tone wood for solid body electric guitars.*
*oops, I forgot about religion. OK maybe people would still argue about electric solid body tone woods even if the physics were totally known.
If you want to talk the physics of tone, that is just the philosophy of perception in the end, but the sustain portion is simple enough, probably could get fairly acurate modeling in Solid Works, certainly ballpark figures.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.