Neck pocket/shimming

[Shadoweclipse13]

Ok, this is a stupid question. I know. Haha. My main guitar (warmoth/homemade Tele Custom) needs some seasonal adjustments as it's buzzing a bit and just not sounding quite right (acoustically). I've been playing for 13/14 years and I've learned how to do many things with my guitars so I don't have to pay someone to do it for me (and so I know how things work ), but I'm curious...

Right now the strings on my Tele aren't terribly far from the fretboard on the head end of the neck, but there's definitely a bit more of a gap on the body end of the neck. I know I can (and how to) adjust the truss rod, I know I could also adjust the saddle heights if needed, but I hear a lot about neck shimming. It's not something I've ever done. What I want to know is, what would make a guitar NEED a neck shim versus just adjusting the truss rod? I know this sounds like it should be a pretty easy answer, but I thought I'd ask. Obviously, I wouldn't want the neck to be bowed WAY in a certain direction or another just to get the buzz to go away, but as I've never done it before...

Is there a certain gap (like more than a certain amount) that would cause you to go the shim route versus adjusting bits or is it just a feel thing?

[EDIT] I went through the library and searched a bit, but since so many people have mentioned shimming their necks, I thought I'd just ask.

[andy_tchp]

Shimming the neck doesn't alter the amount of neck relief (or 'bow'), only adjusting the truss rod does this.

A shim in the pocket just ever-so-slightly changes the overall neck:body angle. You still need to get the neck relief adjusted properly as part of your setup.

Shimming is popular with offsets as it allows you to raise the bridge/saddles, which increases the break angle over the bridge to help alleviate the 'string jumping' issue of the bridge and tighten things up a bit. Even with a substantial shim Jaguars and Jazzmasters have a shallow (compared with something like a Tele or Strat) break angle.

[InLimbo]

It might (?) help. I've always been in the camp that if something works, it works. And shimming is totally reversible, so there's no harm in trying it.

But, shimming a Tele isn't really a popular fix as it is on the Jag and Jazz because as said above, that fix is more applicable to the bridge and break angle.

First, I'd make the the truss rod is adjusted correctly, make sure the nut hasn't worn any, make sure the bridge saddles haven't done anything silly, and make sure the frets look okay. There's a possibility that one fret could have shifted with the weather (popped up slightly or something), especially if you're in a climate that I am that was in the mid-80's this weekend, and now dropping down in the 40's with high humidity.

Do all of this first, to make sure there's not a different root cause, that way you're not just trying to fix a symptom of another issue.

[Shadoweclipse13]

Thanks for the replies guys! I didn't know that about shimming so that's good to know. I was going to mess with it this week anywho, so now I just have a few other things to check out. For reference, the neck is a Warmoth and the nut looks ok (though I'll dig deeper when I give her a look over), and the bridge is a Hipshot 3-saddle Tele bridge with the brass compensated saddles. So, they don't have grooves like a traditional TOM or Jag bridge has, the strings just lay over the top of the saddle. I'll check it when I get up tonight (third shift!!) and report back if there's anything funky going on...

[Larry Mal]

Basically there are two reasons to shim.

The first is to get low action. Sometimes on a Fender type guitar, the action can't be lowered any further with the saddles and yet it's still to high. This is when a shim comes into play, it adds angle to the neck coming off the guitar, and then you can raise the saddles, and still lower the action. This is basically needed due to the mass produced bolt on method that Fender uses. Think of Gibsons, with their glued in necks, they will never be able to add any angle so the necks are always glued in coming from the body at an angle.

Here is a great way to see this for yourself, look at this specs page on the Gibson Firebird:

http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electri ... Specs.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You'll see the neck comes off from the body of the guitar at a pretty steep angle. Basically, you are making your Fender act like more typical guitar construction methods usually are. Not all Fenders need shims, but if yours does, then there's no harm in adding them.

The second reason is to increase the pressure on the saddles. This isn't usually needed with most Fenders, since your typical Telecaster and Strat and such have the strings coming right through the body and over the saddles, and there's plenty of pressure that way. But with Jaguars and Jazzmasters, with that shallow angle that the tremolo unit sends the strings over the saddles, there's not a lot of pressure there, and so the strings can physically move and so can the saddles as well. That's why they came with covers over the bridge, because you can knock the saddles out of alignment with your hand and send yourself out of tune.

But back in the day, this was less of a concern, since strings were heavier. And that's one of the reason why the myth of Jazzmasters needing heavy strings still persists.

You don't need to, though. If you add a shim, then there is a lot more pressure added to the saddles, even a couple of degrees makes a lot of difference, and you can use any strings you want.

[Shadoweclipse13]

Man, Larry. Great information! I'm definitely thinking that my Tele is just gonna be a truss rod adjustment and that I probably won't even consider a shim unless I can't get it right at all. I should be able to though I think. It's just annoying that into and out of cold weather messes with that... Wouldn't it be nice to set it and never have to dick with it again? Haha.

[Larry Mal]

Yeah, the truss rod adjustment can be a hassle, I can only tell you though, that historically speaking it's by far the less of the evils out there. Any time anyone has tried to make a neck that didn't even shift, it was either so unpleasant that no one wanted to use it, or it did shift anyway and there was no way to actually fix it except for the worst possible method. I don't know what they do with things like cellos and upright basses, actually. I'll look into that... but I do know that the easy to adjust truss rod really isn't that bad, it just takes a while to get it right. But it is designed for you to be able to do yourself, which a neck reset and re-gluing is obviously not, and that's what the situation is sometimes.

And no, the shim and the truss rod adjustment are two separate things entirely.

Lastly, it's not a stupid question. Like all of us, you only know what you know when you know it. That's all we can do as human beings, you know? Keep learning and teaching.

[Shadoweclipse13]

Yeah, the truss rod adjustment can be a hassle, I can only tell you though, that historically speaking it's by far the less of the evils out there. Any time anyone has tried to make a neck that didn't even shift, it was either so unpleasant that no one wanted to use it, or it did shift anyway and there was no way to actually fix it except for the worst possible method. I don't know what they do with things like cellos and upright basses, actually. I'll look into that... but I do know that the easy to adjust truss rod really isn't that bad, it just takes a while to get it right. But it is designed for you to be able to do yourself, which a neck reset and re-gluing is obviously not, and that's what the situation is sometimes.

And no, the shim and the truss rod adjustment are two separate things entirely.

Lastly, it's not a stupid question. Like all of us, you only know what you know when you know it. That's all we can do as human beings, you know? Keep learning and teaching.

Oh, I completely agree. It could be much worse for sure. I'm betting cellos have stabilizer rods like some bass necks, plus they can be pretty thick (they look it), but I honestly don't know.

I guess I should've reworded that. Maybe not a stupid question, just that I think I probably should've run into it before now. Haha. But I guess since I'm currently building my first JM (though not with a /Jazz/Jag trem) that would make sense that I haven't run into it before either.

[Larry Mal]

I don't know how that works either, with cellos and upright basses. I'll have to buy an upright bass and get back to you on that, I'll tell my wife that you think it's a good idea and I'm sure she'll agree.

I want an upright bass very badly.

But yeah, the truss rod is the way to go with guitars. I wouldn't want to buy an instrument without one, really.

I can tell you that the first Telecasters didn't have them, and a lot of them were returned to Leo Fender with twisted necks, so that didn't last too long. But he tried not to have them!

[Shadoweclipse13]

I don't know how that works either, with cellos and upright basses. I'll have to buy an upright bass and get back to you on that, I'll tell my wife that you think it's a good idea and I'm sure she'll agree.

I want an upright bass very badly.

But yeah, the truss rod is the way to go with guitars. I wouldn't want to buy an instrument without one, really.

I can tell you that the first Telecasters didn't have them, and a lot of them were returned to Leo Fender with twisted necks, so that didn't last too long. But he tried not to have them!

That's very interesting... I didn't know that about early Teles. Just goes to show that even Leo himself does what we sometimes do: trial and error. Though it does seem, at least from a design and aesthetic point of view, that he got it right more often than not...

Dude, I am SO with you. There's a local band near Milwaukee called I'm Not A Pilot and they have such a unique dynamic. Drummer, bassist, singer on keyboards, BUT, instead of a guitarist, the main melody instrument is an electric cello. The cellist's name is Peter and aside from the band he's actually the youngest member of the Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra. He's classically trained on cello, but it's so cool to watch him play live, one for the fact that cello is just so damn cool, and two, because he used a tweed fender amp (newer I think) and guitar effects! I've chatted with him a few times and he's inspired me to attempt cello SO bad, but as I'm lefty, I may have to attempt making my own (THAT will be a build progress thread for the ages ).

[jorri]

I don't know how that works either, with cellos and upright basses. I'll have to buy an upright bass and get back to you on that, I'll tell my wife that you think it's a good idea and I'm sure she'll agree.

I want an upright bass very badly.

But yeah, the truss rod is the way to go with guitars. I wouldn't want to buy an instrument without one, really.

I can tell you that the first Telecasters didn't have them, and a lot of them were returned to Leo Fender with twisted necks, so that didn't last too long. But he tried not to have them!

Almost all cellos with the exception of a few electrics have no truss. It is a PITA, because this requires occasionally planing the fingerboard, but about as infrequently as a full fret-job. Its all woodwork, setting action requires carving a new bridge on basses too. Double basses seem to be less conservative, they are Viol family and not Violin family like the others, so at least feature extensions, geared tuners, german bows as some common standard. I still don't think you'd find an acoustic with a truss rod however, any quirks seem to be reserved for high end models.
They are not guitar necks though either, they have a lot more stability by how they connect to head and body, and are relatively short for their thickness. You are playing directly on to the board however.

[jorri]

On lefty cellos, they exist but I only see them for over a grand at very least. Its more ambidexterous than guitar, so many just play 'right handed', but if you play lefty guitar i'd imagine you should stay lefty. Its would sound bad with the strings switched over due to the soundbar inside, even though it would play the same.

Shadoweclipse: shims and truss are very different things. Truss affects the curvature of the neck.
Shims technically don't change the action, curvature or anything, once you adjust action back up everything can sit as it once was in theory- but higher from the body and more angled backwards. It is to solve the bridge running out of saddle height adjustment, or to increase break angle over the bridge.

[phutyle]

That's very interesting... I didn't know that about early Teles. Just goes to show that even Leo himself does what we sometimes do: trial and error. Though it does seem, at least from a design and aesthetic point of view, that he got it right more often than not...

Here's the lengths Leo was willing to go to show that a truss rod wasn't needed on the original Esquires:



But as Larry said, the returns convinced him otherwise.

[Liquids]

That's very interesting... I didn't know that about early Teles. Just goes to show that even Leo himself does what we sometimes do: trial and error. Though it does seem, at least from a design and aesthetic point of view, that he got it right more often than not...

Here's the lengths Leo was willing to go to show that a truss rod wasn't needed on the original Esquires:



But as Larry said, the returns convinced him otherwise.

Leo was an inventor, and he was always looking for customer, player, and pro feedback. He was a man of the people, not a staunch 'artisan' type who insisted he knew better. As a non-musician and entrepreneur, success/sales and feedback are what guided him 'externally,' creative ideas guided him internally. He balanced the two, and we're all the richer for it. Some of us still use his 50's/60's ideas and designs, even though his 70's/80's revision and beyond were very noteworthy, if not true improvements.

[Shadoweclipse13]

Thought I'd follow up here that my truss rod adjustment on my Tele worked. I had to adjust it quite a bit to get rid of the buzz, but she's back playing like a dream. It's weird because neither my first guitar (cheap Strat copy) nor either of my two acoustics ever need a truss rod adjustment (seasonally) and my Tele does. They are all stored open in my second bedroom, all about 5 inches away from each other...