Pickup loudness - 62 AVRI JM vs. 50th Jag

[jdr1014]

I've noticed that my stock AVRI 62 Jazzmaster is louder than my 50th Anniversary Jaguar. With the "hotter" pickups in the 50th Jag, I wouldn't have expected this to be the case. I have not done any precise measurements, but the height of the pickups relative to the strings looks to be very comparable on the two guitars.

I've not had much experience with Jaguars before but does this seem normal?

Thanks.

[saxjag]

Personally, I think "hotter" may be a misnomer when applied to pickups. It doesn't mean louder, necessarily; maybe more of a gainy-ness to your guitar tone, like the waveforms are more jagged or the distribution of harmonics is different or something.

[sjperry54]

I don't know if it's normal or not, but my SQJMJM was louder than my CP Jag.

[somebodyelseuk]

Jazzmasters tend to be more 'middly' p/ups(?) and there's the longer scale... also, do both have the same gauge strings?

The 50th Jag has 'hotter' pickups than the AVRI Jag. In some ways, you're comparing apples with oranges... like saying my Tele is louder than my Gretsch. They're different guitars.

JMJM = J Mascis Jazzer?

The 'JMJM' has P90s in a Jazzmaster cover, which is a completely different p/up again... and quite a bit louder than a traditional Fender pickup.
Slight digression, read an interesting piece about the Japanese Jazzmaster pickups yesterday... those are essentially Strat pickups... it's to do with the winding dimensions.

Don't assume that the outward appearance confirms what is under the cover... and 'loudest' doesn't mean 'best tone'.

[jdr1014]

Appreciate the responses........

I've been playing strats & teles off & on for about 45 years and briefly had a Jazzmaster back in the late 60's. Other than that, I'm relatively new to offsets.

On strats and teles, my experience generally has been that "hotter" pickups are usually slightly louder. Having said that, I'm asking a question about JM vs. Jag, which might be like asking "strat vs. tele (teles usually are louder IME). Perhaps I should ask the question of "are Jazzmasters any louder than Jags with comparable style pickups ?"


I don't really care much if one is louder - that's what volume controls are for lol - just curious if what I'm observing is normal...and trying to broaden my "offset knowledge". Certainly I'm far more interested in tone than volume. I know that the CP style jag pickups don't get a lot of love, but these don't sound too bad to my ear thru my SF amps with a bit of EQ'ing. On other guitars I've noted that "hotter" pickups usually sound better set on the low side, so I'm not inclined to raise my Jag's pickups. Obviously I can experiment and return to current heights, though.

Again thanks for responses and info !

edit: incidently, both JM & Jag have 10's for strings.............

[somebodyelseuk]

I'm relatively new to offsets myself - 30+ years Strats/Teles/Twin H/Bs - but pickups are pickups... just wire and magnets!
I was an industrial chemist in a previous life, so a bit of a boffin/nerd... I understand the science and mechanics...

Golden rule No.1 is always make sure the pickups aren't too close to the strings. Fret the strings at the last fret. All the polepieces MUST be at least 2mm away from the strings... without exception... Otherwise, you can have problems with sustain and intonation, as the magnets pull on the strings. I've lost count of the number of people who change pickups and then say the new ones aren't as loud - especially going from ceramic magnets to alnico - proceed to screw them closer to the strings and wonder why it doesn't sustain anymore? If it's too quiet, turn the amp up...

On the 'traditional' JMs and Jags, the bridge... it can work, but it's high maintenance. It IS a cr@p design - too many unnecessary screws and no thought of screw angles. The useful adjustment range of the saddles is so small as to make the height adjustment screws redundant. Downward pressure is the key with these, both for tone, volume and sustain. Shimming the neck slightly is the way to go. The material doesn't matter, more vibration is transferred down the neck screws than through the "wood to (lacquer to) wood" joint. It's about getting a string angle and downward pressure over the bridge. Even with heavier strings, the factory setup isn't conducive to getting the guitar 'singing'. The standard bridge unit does work, but it will work it's screws loose. I stuck with it for two years, got fed up of re-adjusting every few weeks and replaced them with Mustang knock-offs. The 50th Anni Jag shouldn't need shimming, however, as Fender moved the trem closer to the bridge to achieve the angle/pressure on this model.
Mine are Squier VMs with RW/RP pickups. I've put both of mine in the same polarity. There's a little debate on whether this makes a difference. The JM definitely seemed louder and less 'strangled', the Jag... I think so, but not as obvious(?). In any case, this mod is a 'no-go' on pickups with vintage style construction - the Squiers use plastic molded bobbins which allow easy reversal of the magnets.
At the end of the day, pickups are subjective. Your guitars are US, decent woods, so you could change them if you wanted and be pretty sure you wouldn't be wasting money. Mine are Far Eastern 'basswood', a fairly 'mid-rangy' wood, so I'm not convinced that changing to vintage pickups would have any significant effect... nothing that can't be achieved with EQ anyway.

[Telenator]

The magnet size, type, and strength have a lot to do with the "loudness" of a given pickup. It's not just the wind count.

Your pickups may be wound hotter, but unless the magnets followed suit in either size, strength or type, there will not be any increase in volume.

The lesser volume you're hearing might in fact be due to the stronger midrange tendency of pickups that are more heavily wound. Just moving from 42awg wire to 43awg will have a difference in the bite, or perceived loudness of a pickup. It's all a big balancing act between magnet strength/type and wire gauge/winding.

What you're experiencing is not unusual.

[somebodyelseuk]

The magnet size, type, and strength have a lot to do with the "loudness" of a given pickup. It's not just the wind count.

Your pickups may be wound hotter, but unless the magnets followed suit in either size, strength or type, there will not be any increase in volume.

The lesser volume you're hearing might in fact be due to the stronger midrange tendency of pickups that are more heavily wound. Just moving from 42awg wire to 43awg will have a difference in the bite, or perceived loudness of a pickup. It's all a big balancing act between magnet strength/type and wire gauge/winding.

What you're experiencing is not unusual.

What he said.

I was going to say some of that and forgot. Gretsch owner, by any chance?

[jdr1014]

Again, thanks for the responses and info, everyone - very helpful !

My initial inquiry was about the volume difference.....and I've also been experimenting a bit more with the tone of my 50th Anni Jag. I generally prefer vintage-voiced Fenders.........so I'm not "supposed" to like the sound of the CP pickups in that model. However, found that by dialing back the mids in my SFSR, it's sounding pretty darn good to me......

Yes, somebodyelseuk - I'm a Gretsch owner - you too, I presume..... I really like Teles & Strats, but Fender Offfsets and Gretsches are my faves!

[Larry Mal]

Well, Jazzmaster and Jaguar pickups are considerably different as you've seen, I doubt they'd have the same output in volume and why would they?

But to make matter more complicated, because that's what I do on this site, your ears don't perceive all frequencies with the same importance. That is to say, presented with the same sonic information, your ears will selectively hear some of it "better". Your ears have a certain preference for specific frequencies.

My point is that even if the Jazzmaster and the Jaguar were putting out the exact same volume, you would still probably perceive one as being louder than the other due to it broadcasting more of the frequencies that your ears zero in on more than the other.

Your ears are wonderful and imperfect devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;