Tuning Stability Attainable without Lubrication?

[timtam]

Do you think the tension on the tremolo spring has anything to do with this?

I feel somewhat lost on trems like Mastery, and some Fenders, without the lock knob. With the knob, getting the screw tightened to the 'easy-in/easy-out' position of the lock means that the trem plate is approximately horizontal, so nominally 'neutral'. One assumes that the designers have chosen a spring size that is under optimum compression when the plate is horizontal.
https://offset.guitars/site/assets/files/1073/trem1.jpg
Without sufficient compression on the spring, it may not work well with string tension to return the trem back to position after pushing down or pulling up. Any string binding points may compound this by gripping the string and holding it with sufficient force that the returning trem cannot fully overcome.

Without the lock knob to guide you, you still want the trem screw adjusted to make the plate roughly horizontal. But short of dismounting the trem (or doing it before installation), how to check that is not entirely clear. Maybe mark the screw position for horizontal / neutral with a texta before installation ? Measure the vertical angle of the protruding collet with a set square ?

[andy_tchp]

All this talk about the bridge.

Make sure the tremolo is not binding on the edge/s of the cavity - there is very little 'wiggle room' in there, even a slight misalignment at assembly time could cause some rubbing of the plate against wood.

This will cause strings to remain sharp when pulling up on the bar.

I think you may have missed this post:

If I lift the low e off the saddle, the saddle darts forward

Nope, I saw it. It all works (well - it is supposed to work) as a system.

[alexpigment]

Nope, I saw it. It all works (well - it is supposed to work) as a system.

That's a valid point. Having said that, I don't think the saddles should ever move so much that they jump forward when taking the string off. Saddles should - in my experience - always stay relatively static.

[ek11sx]

Here are the things I have done and the results

Firstly, I added a nut in between the spring and the intonation screw on all for screws. Picture below

https://imgur.com/gallery/lRIxJBx

This made it very difficult to shift the saddles back. I noticed that you could not see the saddles move backwards or forwards while using the trem. Despite this I could see the whole bridge rock back and forth slightly. Tuning stability not solved here.

Next, I loosened the neck bolts and wedged a .60mm pick into the far side of the pocket. I lowered the bridge until 4/64ths action on both sides and tried it out. No dice, tuning issues, worse going sharp.

Next, I string it up with 10-46 gauge strings to lighten the load on the saddles. I also removed the makeshift shim and put on the stock trem system with the lock so I could get a normal reading of the trem tension. I set up the lock/string balance and tried it out. A little better but not good enough.

I ran out of steam to try anything else. So overall, not very successful. Proper shims come Monday. The .5 degree shim will be more steep than the pick used. I’ll have to redo the wholes in the shim because I’ll be doing it backwards so wish me luck there. So far my conclusion is that I have made a mistake and I should have bought a Les Paul

[alexpigment]

I ran out of steam to try anything else. So overall, not very successful. Proper shims come Monday. The .5 degree shim will be more steep than the pick used. I’ll have to redo the wholes in the shim because I’ll be doing it backwards so wish me luck there. So far my conclusion is that I have made a mistake and I should have bought a Les Paul

Les Pauls have their own handful of tuning problems to be honest. Between the angled back headstock and the sharp angles of the D & G strings between the nut and tuners, it's really hard to keep them from binding in my experience, especially the G string.

As for the fate of this Jazzmaster, I can only offer my 2 cents on it. If I were in your position, I'd sell the Mastery Bridge and Trem and make a few hundred dollars, buy an American Pro 52mm bridge, remove the plastic from the thimbles (or just get AVRI thimbles if necessary), and I think everything should be kosher at that point... on paper. As timtam has alluded to - and I think I may agree after all these experiments - the non-rocking nature of the bridge with the added downforce due to the neck angle is possibly forcing the bridge saddles to go back and forth. If your bridge were rocking freely, I think you'd have a better chance of everything staying in tune.

At any rate, I realize this is all anecdotal at this point, because you're clearly willing to try all suggestions, and none of the suggestions thus far have worked (barring the arrival of the shim). I really do think this is fixable, but the medium of internet for relaying of ideas and results is just not ideal.

[ek11sx]

Yes I agree, this is not ideal for troubleshooting but it is what we have.

So, I did buy a 52mm am pro bridge and I did put it on without the bushings in the thimbles just to see what would happen. That didn’t really work either. Not sure if I set it up right though. I have no experience with a rocking bridge

[timtam]

If you've now got the stock trem back in you can follow the setup process for a trem with a lock ..
https://offset.guitars/the-goodies/sett ... lo-system/

[ek11sx]

If you've now got the stock trem back in you can follow the setup process for a trem with a lock ..
https://offset.guitars/the-goodies/sett ... lo-system/

Got that all squared away

[Embenny]

Not to sound like a broken record, but have you take it to a good tech to get the nut assessed and optimally filed? Because you're having issues with multiple bridges, multiple trems...that really sounds like there's a common denominator to all these problems.

[Danley]

A lot of luthiers don’t know how these guitars work is one problem - you’re likely to be met with a lot of head scratching, suggestions of bad mods as a solution, or insistence that it’s working as well as it can even if it doesn’t play in tune. Let me ask: Where are you located?

This is where it’s useful to have a few (working) offsets on hand to cycle through parts, swapping as process of elimination (not that buying more guitars is a cheap or reasonable solution- but the more you become experienced with these the easier it is to ‘seed’ from the good ones.) I know you’ve gone down this road, but could be both vibratos you’ve had so far (stock/Mastery) have been faulty - though that’s unusual if you’re using the pricier US and Mastery vibratos.

But hey - I once had a Squier vibrato that was unstable, and bought a brand new MIJ unit that was just as faulty so two in a row is possible. I agree that as long as you know the nut is fine, the easiest (not cheapest) route might just be buying a known working bridge/vibrato - or at least new US ones. I’d also still pay very close attention to whether whatever new vibrato does or doesn’t contact the cavity.

[ek11sx]

A lot of luthiers don’t know how these guitars work is one problem - you’re likely to be met with a lot of head scratching, suggestions of bad mods as a solution, or insistence that it’s working as well as it can even if it doesn’t play in tune. Let me ask: Where are you located?

Upstate, NY

[ek11sx]

Not to sound like a broken record, but have you take it to a good tech to get the nut assessed and optimally filed? Because you're having issues with multiple bridges, multiple trems...that really sounds like there's a common denominator to all these problems.

Could be, I have a new nut in the mail. If the bridge wasn’t shifting I would have brought it to someone so they could check the nut. Regardless of what happens next I’ll be bringing it to a guy

[ek11sx]

But hey - I once had a Squier vibrato that was unstable, and bought a brand new MIJ unit that was just as faulty so two in a row is possible. I agree that as long as you know the nut is fine, the easiest (not cheapest) route might just be buying a known working bridge/vibrato - or at least new US ones. I’d also still pay very close attention to whether whatever new vibrato does or doesn’t contact the cavity.

Is the AVRI Trem different from the Am Pro?

Also, guitar gets dropped off at my tech tomorrow

[timtam]

Is the AVRI Trem different from the Am Pro?

Other than the Am Pro having a screw-in arm and the AVRI being a push-in, the differences are likely slight. But the Am Pro is still relatively new, so few people will have given both a work out. Some under-the-hood pics here ...
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/vie ... 5#p1525263

[buscon]

Do you think the tension on the tremolo spring has anything to do with this?

I feel somewhat lost on trems like Mastery, and some Fenders, without the lock knob. With the knob, getting the screw tightened to the 'easy-in/easy-out' position of the lock means that the trem plate is approximately horizontal, so nominally 'neutral'. One assumes that the designers have chosen a spring size that is under optimum compression when the plate is horizontal.
https://offset.guitars/site/assets/files/1073/trem1.jpg
Without sufficient compression on the spring, it may not work well with string tension to return the trem back to position after pushing down or pulling up. Any string binding points may compound this by gripping the string and holding it with sufficient force that the returning trem cannot fully overcome.

Without the lock knob to guide you, you still want the trem screw adjusted to make the plate roughly horizontal. But short of dismounting the trem (or doing it before installation), how to check that is not entirely clear. Maybe mark the screw position for horizontal / neutral with a texta before installation ? Measure the vertical angle of the protruding collet with a set square ?

Hi,

I am struggling with the same issue, I have a MIM Jazzmaster player that has a tremolo without the lock. Did you figure out how to set the screw correctly?
I have some tuning issue when I use the tremolo and my guess is that it has to do with the setting of the tremolo (of course other issues might play a role too).