Johnny Marr tuners / Fender 6-in-Line American Vintage tuners

[nuemes]

I've got three Fender Johnny Marr guitars (Marrguars) and all three go out of tune easily. Each guitar has a Mastery bridge and Mastery trem and has been properly set up with appropriate string gauge (11-52) and bone nut so the last of the culprits that I'm aware of, apart from my playing style being hard on the strings, is the tuners.

Has anyone else with a Marrguar or AVRI (both use the Fender 6-in-Line American Vintage tuners to my knowledge) had similar problems going out of tune? I have to tune every two songs during a set, and every time after a particularly heavy-handed song.

Have any of you switched out the tuners? If so what have you used and did it make a noticeable improvement? I've been looking at Kluson 6 In Line Revolution Series F-Mount Non-Collared Tuning Machines For Fender Guitars (which, annoyingly, only come in gold, link below) but hesitate to make such a change without hearing others' experience.

https://www.kluson.com/kluson-6-in-line ... tails.html

[alexpigment]

For the strings that go out of tune regularly, what happens if you momentarily press down on the string between the nut and the tuners? Do the strings then go (and stay) sharp? I’d recommend doing this test on each string. They *should* all come back to pitch. But knowing if they go sharp or flat will pinpoint the problem.

I would hesitate to switch tuners without diagnosing where the instability is actually coming from.

[Danley]

I’ve never had a tuning stability problem that was the tuners. The Mastery is a high dollar unit, but it wouldn’t alarm me if a particular one still had some sort of problem with the pivot; do you have the stock vibrato to try?

[alexpigment]

I’ve never had a tuning stability problem that was the tuners. The Mastery is a high dollar unit, but it wouldn’t alarm me if a particular one still had some sort of problem with the pivot; do you have the stock vibrato to try?

Agreed, but again, it's easy to diagnose tuning problems without changing any parts. I guess rather than waiting for answers to questions, here's my basic flow chart:

1) Press the string down (fairly firmly) between the nut and the tuners, then release. Check the string on a tuner. If the string comes back to normal pitch, it's neither the tuners nor the nut. If it goes sharp, it's the nut that's the problem. If it goes flat, it's either the way the strings are put on the tuners, or (unlikely) the tuners are faulty.

2) If the strings go back to pitch on test 1, this time press down on the strings between the tremolo and the bridge. If the string goes sharp, the problem is at the bridge. If the string goes flat, the problem is at the tremolo.

Hope this helps. I am 100% confident we can get your guitar to stay in tune today without any expenses.

[nuemes]

I’ve never had a tuning stability problem that was the tuners. The Mastery is a high dollar unit, but it wouldn’t alarm me if a particular one still had some sort of problem with the pivot; do you have the stock vibrato to try?

Yes, I had the stock vibrato on two of the three guitars before the Mastery was put in and had the same tuning issue on each guitar. I'm confident it's not a vibrato issue given it's happening with all three guitars and with different vibratos.

[nuemes]

1) Press the string down (fairly firmly) between the nut and the tuners, then release. Check the string on a tuner. If the string comes back to normal pitch, it's neither the tuners nor the nut. If it goes sharp, it's the nut that's the problem. If it goes flat, it's either the way the strings are put on the tuners, or (unlikely) the tuners are faulty.

2) If the strings go back to pitch on test 1, this time press down on the strings between the tremolo and the bridge. If the string goes sharp, the problem is at the bridge. If the string goes flat, the problem is at the tremolo.

Thank you - will try this today on each guitar and get back.

[alexpigment]

Thank you - will try this today on each guitar and get back.

Sounds good. I'm going to put my money on "string goes sharp after pushing down behind the nut". A tiny bit of vaseline (or Nut Sauce) goes a long way for addressing this problem. If the string goes flat when pushing down behind the nut, a helpful thing will be taking a close up picture (sideways preferably) of the string posts to see the string windings.

[JVG]

I’ll add my voice to the “unlikely to be the tuners” chorus, and that it’s most likely a nut issue.

Also worth considering....how is your technique of putting the strings on, in terms of the way they wrap around the tuner post? If there are random overlaps and such, it can also lead to tuning instability, due to binding/slipping issues (especially when using the vibrato).

J.

[fisonic]

Just to state the obvious, you always tune up, not down?

[nuemes]

Just to state the obvious, you always tune up, not down?

Yes.

[thisisnickpaige]

1) Press the string down (fairly firmly) between the nut and the tuners, then release. Check the string on a tuner. If the string comes back to normal pitch, it's neither the tuners nor the nut. If it goes sharp, it's the nut that's the problem. If it goes flat, it's either the way the strings are put on the tuners, or (unlikely) the tuners are faulty.

2) If the strings go back to pitch on test 1, this time press down on the strings between the tremolo and the bridge. If the string goes sharp, the problem is at the bridge. If the string goes flat, the problem is at the tremolo.

As a side note thank you so much for this post and this thread, such a simple tip to save a lot of time and money.

Yes I will join the choir that if you are having trem/tuning problems it’s almost always how you put your strings on or how the nut slots are. There’s also the notorious pinging sound when you tune up or down that’s a give away.

Have you noticed the ping or done the above suggest trick?

[adamrobertt]

I put these on all my guitars: https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Pa ... uners.html

They look like vintage tuners but they are locking. They DEFINITELY help with tuning stability. I'm not sure why people say tuners don't matter, they absolutely do. Another place to check is your nut, though. Too-tight nut slots are a common culprit for guitars going out of tune quickly.

[alexpigment]

They look like vintage tuners but they are locking. They DEFINITELY help with tuning stability. I'm not sure why people say tuners don't matter, they absolutely do.

It's because locking tuners don't do what most people think they do. They don't lock the string in tune - all tuners do that more or less equally. Locking tuners lock the string inside the post. Fender vintage tuners (i.e. "Safe-T-Post") lock the string inside the post as well, at least when strung correctly. There should be absolutely zero difference in tuning stability.

There are definitely downsides to locking tuners in my experience, so that's generally why I prefer the originals. Still, the OP is complaining about tuning issues as his reason for wanting to change. I tried to lay out above a method of determining exactly where the tuning instability comes from, and hopefully once he gets around to trying it, it should be fairly simple to solve without wasting money on new tuners.

[Danley]

It's because locking tuners don't do what most people think they do. They don't lock the string in tune - all tuners do that more or less equally. Locking tuners lock the string inside the post. Fender vintage tuners (i.e. "Safe-T-Post") lock the string inside the post as well, at least when strung correctly. There should be absolutely zero difference in tuning stability.

Thank you for the correct assessment of what locking tuners actually do The real purpose is to minimize winds around the posts and thus reduce possible friction between the string and itself - but in practice that effect can be nonexistent and a guitar with non-locking tuners can be made to stay in tune very easily, as long as you aren’t crazy with your stringing.

(I’ve repeated myself enough times, but even with a floating bridge I’ve never had a tuning issue where the tuners were at fault. I have had just about everything else be at fault though.)

[alexpigment]

(I’ve repeated myself enough times, but even with a floating bridge I’ve never had a tuning issue where the tuners were at fault. I have had just about everything else be at fault though.)

Yep. And just for the hell of it, I've recorded a little bit of me going up and down on the trem mindlessly with a floating bridge and vintage style tuners (Squier ones, even). As you can hear, it always comes back to pitch. All tuning problems on a guitar can be easily solved if you can diagnose the cause.

www.theselectedworks.com/music/heavytremuse.mp3