Neck pocket angle

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northernlights
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Neck pocket angle

Post by northernlights » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:10 pm

What is the neck pocket angle on av 65, ao and am pro jazzmaster? I know cp jazzmasters come with neck angle but im not sure on these models.

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Debaser
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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by Debaser » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:45 am

I don’t have any measurement on the stock 65 AV, but my Thinskin AV 65 is between 2 and 2.5 degrees, leaning more towards 2. It’s an estimate because I didn’t take the neck off, but it’s accurate as my caliper and trig skills are ;D
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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by timtam » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:48 pm

Over 2 degrees sounds like a lot. Given that most shimmed necks use closer to 1 degree shims AFAIK. But I can't remember Fender saying anywhere what these machined neck pocket angles are.

BTW without doing the trig to get the angle you can measure the drop from end to end in the pocket and then match it up to the specified angle on Stewmac shims ...
https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_S ... uitar.html
0.25-degree shim tapers from 0.030" to 0.019" (0.76mm to 0.48mm)
0.5-degree shim tapers from 0.028" to 0.008" (0.71mm to 0.20mm)
1-degree shim tapers from 0.060" to 0.010" (1.52mm to 0.25mm)


So ...
A drop of around* 1.27mm means the angle is around 1 degree.
A drop of around 0.51mm means the angle is around 0.5 degrees.
A drop of around 0.28mm means the angle is around 0.25 degrees.

*trig says the actual values should be closer to 1.3mm, 0.65mm, 0.33mm for 1.0, 0.5, 0.25 degrees.

I also had this written down from somewhere ...

CBS era Fender shims
011098 = 0.010" Gray 0.254 mm
011114 = 0.015" Red 0.381 mm
010918 = 0.032" Black 0.813 mm
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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by JVG » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 am

I agree that 2 degrees is a lot - the bridge would be really high off the body to make that work.

I've got custom made offsets with 1 or 1.5 degree angles, both of which work very well. I'd imagine the Fenders are similar.

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J.

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by Debaser » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:44 pm

Two degrees is what it is, folks. I used my calipers when I had the neck off for other work. At a distance of 1.69” (42.93mm) the thickness changes by 0.06” (1.52mm). I’m not as accurate with the horizontal but I have room to fudge that and still be more or less 2 degrees. The vertical measurement in this case is the calipers forte. Of course this is wood, and wood moves. Precision routing/milling can do wonders today but I’m sure there is decent wiggle room in this spec.

I agree that a 1 degree shim is base requirement for a flat-pocket Jazzmaster. I use a 1 degree StewMac shim on my VM. I used to run it at ~2 degrees too, and the bridge height wasn’t as dramatic as one would believe.
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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by northernlights » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 am

Thanks guys. I've never used shim or needed it thus i wonder you guys are talking about it. Which models of fender have flat pocket?

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by Maxadur » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:04 am

Interesting discussion.......in this 2012 NAMM Youtube video, Justin in the Fender booth states that there is a one degree angle built into the neck pocket of the Marr Jaguar. So, when Johnny and his tech add a .6 mm shim to that, he's raising his bridge some for a better break angle.
I would like to know if it's a wedge shim or a .6 mm full size flat shim just to get the bridge higher.
Pictures and screen grabs of the silver sparkle jag show the bridge and the bridge pickup sitting quite high, I think.
It's not unlikely that all the offsets have one degree built in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=033UfyVoIys
Last edited by Maxadur on Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by j mascis » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:27 am

I've read the comments on the stewmac shims, and most people say the .25 or .50 degree are plenty.
I guess that depends what your starting problem is. But it seems those do the job most of the time. Most people also comment on how a small change in the pocket results in a large change at the bridge.

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by timtam » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:35 pm

Maxadur wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:04 am
So, when Johnny and his tech add a .6 mm shim to that, he's raising his bridge some for a better break angle.
I would like to know if it's a wedge shim or a .6 mm full size flat shim just to get the bridge higher.
Each of the Stewmac shims have a thickness at the thin end as well as the taper. So they raise the heel slightly as well as angling it. See my figures above.

But I don't know if the 0.6mm you refer to was the taper from front to back or just a flat wedge. Where did you hear that ?

I did the calculations to estimate how much an angled shim affects bridge height for someone on another board ....

In Excel ....
Shim degrees in A1
Distance from front of neck pocket to saddles in A2
Formula for bridge saddle height change in A3 ...
=TAN(RADIANS(A1))*A2

eg
0.5 deg shim
240mm from front of pocket to saddles
Bridge height change = 2.1mm (0.08")

You would add any thickness at the thin end of the shim wedge - that just raises the heel by that amount - to get a final estimate for the likely total bridge height change.

There are probably a few assumptions here (eg that the string line to the saddles changes by the same angle as the undersurface of the neck heel in the shimmed pocket), so regard the answer as approximate.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by Maxadur » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:37 am

Timtam........I was referring to what Johnny himself briefly referred to regarding his setup:

Quote: " Jaguars can be a complex instrument to set up. Could you explain how you like to run your Jags, and perhaps any tips you have for getting the most out of one?
I find you absolutely have to have .011s on a Jag. No question on that! Guitarists that are used to playing with .010s on other guitars will find a Jag with .011s will behave in a way they understand. I personally set up my Jags so they have a little bit of fight in them. I won’t say high action, but they’re certainly not set up for fast shredding, and that gives it some real punch when you’re playing rhythm, and some real wallop and bottom end. I have a little shim that I put in the neck that’s .6 mm, and I find the neck angle is crucial on Jaguars, more so than almost any other guitar. The neck angle and the string break across the bridge really needs to be fine-tuned, but I’ve got it down now, between myself and my tech. It’s all about string tension with them."

Is it a .6 mm tapered shim, or a flat one, seeing as his signature Jag already has a 1 degree angle in the pocket.
Your calculations are very useful, thank you.

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by timtam » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:56 pm

Maxadur wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:37 am
"I have a little shim that I put in the neck that’s .6 mm, and I find the neck angle is crucial on Jaguars, more so than almost any other guitar. The neck angle and the string break across the bridge really needs to be fine-tuned, but I’ve got it down now, between myself and my tech. It’s all about string tension with them."

Is it a .6 mm tapered shim, or a flat one, seeing as his signature Jag already has a 1 degree angle in the pocket.
Your calculations are very useful, thank you.
That Marr quote was published in 2018 so presumably it reflects his relatively recent shim practice ..
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... arm?page=2

But Marr had vintage jags long before Fender released the Marr signature jag. So while the interview may have been done post-release of the Marr signature jag, I'm not sure that we can conclude if he puts that 0.6mm shim in Marr jags (that already have a 1 deg heel slope it seems), or his vintage jags, or both. Vintage jags (and AVRIs ?) had flat pockets but of course often had narrow flat shims added in the base of the pocket at the factory ..
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/vie ... php?t=4447
I believe those were specified between 0.25mm and 0.8mm (uncompressed) - see my earlier post above. Since Marr's very next phrase after the 0.6mm remark refers to neck angle, I assume that the 0.6mm shim he's talking about is that narrow flat style that sits just in the base of the pocket (that angles the neck down like a full-pocket tapered one would) ... not a full-pocket flat 0.6mm thick shim that would simply raise the neck.

Some famous guitarists know exactly what their techs do; others have no idea. Marr is mostly in the former category, but it's hard to be sure of exactly what he means. I'm guessing the most logical practice would be to leave the 1deg fixed Marr slope as is, but add the 0.6mm (or tapered equivalent) to jags without the fixed slope.

You can calculate the approximate pocket angle achieved by the flat narrow shim (and therefore the equivalent angled shim), knowing the Fender neck pocket is 76 mm long ..
http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/faq2.aspx

In Excel ....
Narrow shim height in A1
Neck pocket length in A2
Formula for angle achieved / equivalent shim angle in A3 ...
=DEGREES(ATAN(A1/A2))

eg
0.6mm narrow shim at end of pocket
76mm pocket length
Angle achieved / equivalent shim angle = 0.45 degs
But remember that an equivalent angled shim would have 0 thickness at the other end of the pocket .. unlike the 0.25/0.5/1.0 degree Stewmac angled shims that are specified to have 0.48, 0.20 and 0.25mm thicknesses (which I suspect are rather approximate) at that other end .. which adds an additional small neck (and bridge saddle) raise.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by Maxadur » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:03 am

Very good analysis............and I know I'm geeking out here, but I'm just trying to get the best result without too much trial and error (okay, it's fun too). I've added a one degree shim with 11's , which required raising the bridge a bit, and it sounds and feels very good.
Other than finding a 52 mm bridge, I think I'm done.

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by JSett » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:58 am

Resurrecting this instead of starting a new thread.

Has anyone here reverse-shimmed their AV JM/Jaguar? I dont like to shim mine if I can help it and using a Mastery means I don't have to. I like the strings and pickups closer to the body so can I reverse-shim? If so, is the aforementioned 2deg correct?
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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by schoolie » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:06 am

Yes, I hated the neck angle on my AO Jazzmaster, so I bought a 0.5 degree shim to reduce the neck angle. Stewmac sells blank, rectangular shims, and I had to shape the shim and drill holes for the screws. I don't know if the neck angle varies on Fender offsets, but 0.5 worked for me

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Re: Neck pocket angle

Post by JSett » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:31 am

schoolie wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:06 am
Yes, I hated the neck angle on my AO Jazzmaster, so I bought a 0.5 degree shim to reduce the neck angle. Stewmac sells blank, rectangular shims, and I had to shape the shim and drill holes for the screws. I don't know if the neck angle varies on Fender offsets, but 0.5 worked for me
Yeah, I saw the stewmac shims. I've always just used a pick or slice of playing card (or two) in the past when I've absolutely needed to shim but going backwards I'm inclined to do it properly.
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