Acoustic guitar setup/probably a quick question for Oid

[Larry Mal]

Hi all, help me figure this out. I have a super nice J-45, and the high E string buzzes on the frets, even played open- the B string does a little as well. Here's what we know:

1) The neck is perfectly straight.
2) I don't see that the neck is twisted.
3) There are some high frets, I checked with my fret rocker, but nothing extreme. Something that can usually be lived with.
4) I have the action higher than I want it to be at present, at about 2.25mm on the high E string and 3mm on the low E. I tend to hope for 1.5mm and 2mm typically if I can get it.
5) There is plenty of room on the saddle.
6) The guitar is kept under proper humidity and the top is certainly not sunken... in fact, if I lay a flat edge across the top of the guitar there is plenty of rocking, possibly too much.

At this point I am starting to think that the nut might be at fault, which I would love to believe so I can replace the black plastic one with a nice bone nut. I'd have my man level the frets and do the nut.

Just curious if I'm way off base with this or if my thinking is sound.

This guitar sounds glorious, and really should be just about my #1 except for this setup issue. And I would never talk about a guitar without putting up pictures:





Here it is with my J-35, another guitar that I love- they are very different.



Thanks for any advice you have!

[timtam]

If it buzzed open but not fretted that usually means the nut. Buzzing on both suggests something else. Where are the high frets ? And the neck is straight with no relief (capoed at 1st and fretted at neck join) ?

[Larry Mal]

Thanks for the advice- it buzzes open and fretted.

I can get some movement with the fret rocker tool on the 2nd, 6th, 8th, 15th and some of the higher ones up also. Like I say, it's a mild amount.

I use one of those Stew-Mac notched straightedge tools , I don't see any relief, nothing but a completely flat fingerboard.

[timtam]

With action higher than you want, and the buzzing, I'd suggest taking it to a good tech. It may need a light fret dressing to address the buzzing, maybe a little relief added via a truss rod adjustment, and some sanding of the saddle underside to get the action down. If the first fret action is high then some nut slot work might also be in order, which would bring the action down a little, but would be more do to with ensuring it plays in tune at that end. OTOH it's also possible that you could have a low nut slot and some fret issues; you could check the nut via first fret action with feeler gauges.

[Embenny]

If it buzzes when fretted - on any fret - it is definitively not the nut, as you have taken that out of the equation at that point.

I agree that a fret leveling +/- adding a touch of relief *should* enable a good tech to get the action down by sanding the saddle. Then we start getting into less-likely, more-serious causes.

[Larry Mal]

Yeah, that's what I'll do, get it to a tech. I'll probably just go ahead and invest in a bone nut and just have that be part of it. I'm not skilled enough to troubleshoot this one.

[Larry Mal]

I agree that a fret leveling +/- adding a touch of relief *should* enable a good tech to get the action down by sanding the saddle. Then we start getting into less-likely, more-serious causes.

These are the ones that I'm worrying about, but I probably shouldn't be. I actually had the saddle lower at some point- I have a saddle for where I want the action to be, I guess, and one that is where I put it to in order to end the buzzing, but I still didn't end it.

It'll just need a good tech. But my constant problem always comes up with this, the good tech takes for-ever but I can have great confidence that the work is great after only a few seasons.

The other guy I use is a little more hit or miss, which is why I set up my guitars myself these days, but I'm really only capable of doing a job in which everything is going my way, if something like fretwork or nut work shows up, I am out of my depth.

I'll hang tight until the new year and get it to one shop or the other. The truth is, it's probably just a setup job that I'm wanting here. I can kind of get in my head with this stuff, I did with that J-35 above, but once I hand it off to a professional then I tend to feel fine about it.

This is probably the best sounding guitar that I've ever had, though- three dimensional, rich. It's really something.

I would have a hard time deciding if I had to give up this or the L-00. The L-00 is wonderful, and plays like a dream, I didn't have to do anything to it. It's the sort of guitar that encourages me to play outside of what I normally am good at.

[timtam]

if you want to try something yourself, I would add a little relief ... say 0.2-0.3mm. The tech will probably do that anyway, and it just might make the buzzing go away (strings need room to vibrate freely). It will also make the action a little higher though, but if the buzz went away you could then go back to your low saddle, and the buzz might not come back (with low action/correct relief). But if relief doesn't work to fix the buzz, at least you can save the tech trying that isolated fix.

[Telemnemonics]

No relief on an acoustic may not play very well, and maybe at some point the frets were dressed for some fall away on the upper frets.
Fall away would make the typical acoustic setup with more relief for strumming, not fret out above the 12th fret or so where the relief runs uphill.
I say this to put the next sentence in perspective.

If you check the straightness of the neck with a notched straightedge, you don't know if the frets are level.
If there is some fall away dressed in then a straight board will mean a back bow condition on the frets.
A back bow will buzz all over the board!

A notched straightedge is only useful if you're about the dress the frets.
If you want to check or set relief, the notched will not help at all, you want a plain edge to check the fret tops.

Sounds like you really want that new nut anyhow...

[timtam]

Something I sometimes forget myself ... a notched straight edge has stuff between the notches ... so can also be used as a regular straight edge in a pinch. So ... it's a good suggestion to also put the straight edge on the frets and look for high / low frets across the whole neck that way. Do that next to the high E and also next to the low E.

[Telemnemonics]

Something I sometimes forget myself ... a notched straight edge has stuff between the notches ... so can also be used as a regular straight edge in a pinch. So ... it's a good suggestion to also put the straight edge on the frets and look for high / low frets across the whole neck that way. Do that next to the high E and also next to the low E.

Ha ha yeah, use that stuff!

[oid]

This sounds like a bridge area issue, all frets means it is not neck or frets.

Ball ends may not be seated against the bridge plate, pull the pin out part way so the string can move in and out, pull the string tight against the bridge plate and push the pin back in while keeping tension on the string. if the string wants to pull into the guitar as you press the pin in that means the ball is catching on the end of the pin and not seated on the bridge plate. When installing strings never use the pin to push the ball through the bridge, always put the string into the hole then the pin loosely, pull tight and press the pin in once the ball is seated against the plate.

Saddle may not be seated well or fit. Make sure the bottom of the saddle is flat and the slot is both flat and free of debris, same for any shims, make sure it fits tightly in its slot the full length and not tipping forward in the slot. Check the leading edge of the saddle on those strings and that the string leaves the saddle cleanly. If you have a saddle from another guitar fits you can pop it in and see what happens to rule out the saddle as well.

Acoustics can buzz in weird ways, sometimes it is another string buzzing as it sympathetically vibrates despite not being an issue normally, so mute the other strings and see what happens as well as mute other parts of the guitar. The strings above the nut, below the saddle, the top in various places, the bridge, see if you can make it go away.

Some guitars also just develop a buzz when they go into a new home and adjust to the new climate, these almost always go away after a few weeks and their cause can never be found.

If none of that solves the issue or provide some new clues, which frets are the high frets? Does the buzz change in anyway as you go up the neck? Is that the same for both the B and the E? If different how so? Is the buzz worse at any single fret? A recording of the buzz would likely help as well if it persists, buzz is rather vague and each source has its own sound.

I am forgetting something...

[oid]

Oh yeah, what are the circumstances under which the buzz showed up? Has it been there since day one? Recently pop up? Do any work or change strings recently?

[timtam]

Ball ends may not be seated against the bridge plate, pull the pin out part way so the string can move in and out, pull the string tight against the bridge plate and push the pin back in while keeping tension on the string. if the string wants to pull into the guitar as you press the pin in that means the ball is catching on the end of the string and not seated on the bridge plate. When installing strings never use the pin to push the ball through the bridge, always put the string into the hole then the pin loosely, pull tight and press the pin in once the ball is seated against the plate.

I always file a bevel on the end of my pins to stop the ball getting caught on the pin end ...
https://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_R ... _pins.html

[oid]

I always file a bevel on the end of my pins to stop the ball getting caught on the pin end ...
https://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_R ... _pins.html

That can indeed help.

The simple no work way is just to bend the string to about 45ish degrees 1/4" or so past the loop, put the string in and hook the bent part under the bridge, push in the pin and while holding the pin down pull the string up until it seats, this assures the string seats well and makes certain the plate is what holds the string against tension and the pin just holds the string in place. This also makes certain the ball end does not get wedged between the pin and plate corner which makes pins difficult to pull and chews up the bridge plate.

Most pins these days have both a slot and the bevel, which help greatly, but some bridge holes and string slots do not always play well with all pins and strings regardless. Tweaking the holes and slots so strings seat properly is one of the more common tweaks new guitars need. The slot and the bevel really is just to make the pin and holes taper and the string slot less critical and more forgiving to poor installation, well fitted pins free of the slot are great things, but you have to get everything perfect and they have no tolerance for poor string installation.