Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

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NateD81
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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by NateD81 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:29 pm

timtam wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:05 pm
NateD81 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:03 pm
I ended up finding a used, what I believe is the Fender American Professional bridge used on Reverb for 60 bucks so I’m just going to give it a shot. It came off the Triple Humbucker 60th anniv JM I thought I might try it. I figure if the E’s are off I can fix that in my dads machine shop, but hoping I won’t need to. If that doesn’t work out I’ll throw it back up on Reverb but if nothing else, I’ll post my results to help anyone with a similar situation.
Yes it looks like the 60th Anniv Triple JM has the 7709942000 Am Pro bridge. Hopefully it suits. The (harder) fix for too-wide string spacing is to drill new intonation screw holes in the other wall of the bridge plate that are 10.4mm apart, and shave off the sides of the saddles to allow the string grooves to also be 10.4mm apart (for 52mm E-E spacing ) instead of 11.2mm apart (with 56mm spacing).
It cracks me up how Fender has seemed to create this problem for their customers! Haha I really love Fender, but it seems they could have simplified things for not only the customer but for themselves! Preaching to the choir, I'm sure.

I ended up adjusting my string spacing on my JM to what I believe to be 56mm, just to see if it would bother me at all and I actually seemed to be ok. I guess I'll find out when the Am Pro bridge comes.

Just a thought, does anyone know if the saddles on the Am Pro bridge are perfectly round barrels? If so, could the low E and high E barrels be flipped 180 and then mill two new slots to get closer to the 52mm spacing? Just trying to be creative :)

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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by timtam » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:57 pm

NateD81 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:29 pm
Just a thought, does anyone know if the saddles on the Am Pro bridge are perfectly round barrels? If so, could the low E and high E barrels be flipped 180 and then mill two new slots to get closer to the 52mm spacing? Just trying to be creative :)
The barrel saddles on Mustang-style bridges are indeed cylindrical, but the string grooves go all the way round. And so narrower-spaced grooves would probably be too close to the existing ones to make that scheme work.

What you can do is make a dual-radius Mustang bridge .. ie file down the middle saddle ridges or string grooves on a 7.25 radius Mustang bridge (or the outer ones on a 9.5" radius bridge) so you have one side that is 9.5" radius and the other 7.25".
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by NateD81 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:18 pm

timtam wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:20 pm
So your pic with the setup that works for you now is at 2 inches E-E spacing (50.8mm). If someone has the 7709942000 American Pro aftermarket bridge maybe they can help us with an exact E-E spacing measurement. But as I said there is a suspician that it's closer to 56mm than Riley quotes. If so, you could try that spacing by moving your E strings now out to 2.2" apart (56mm), and see if it still works for you.

But 52mm sounds like the best fixed spacing option for you. Staytrem (9.5" radius version for your JM) and Mastery are 52mm. Or the 7712971000 Marr bridge from Riley is supposedly 52mm (but 7.25" radius), but it's only just become available and AFAIK no one has taken delivery of one aftermarket yet to check that it has really got 52mm E-E spacing.
Just an update - I ended up moving my spacing out to 56mm E-E and I can say, at least on my 60th anni JM, it was no problem at all in regards to the Es slipping off the fretboard. I played the usual pieces that I've had trouble with in the past on another JM and that wasn't the case on this MIM 60th JM, so my hopes are that I'll be able to pop on the Am Pro bridge and be good to go. I'll report back when it arrives and I've got it on there.

Thank you so much for your help on this topic!

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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by solfege » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:26 am

timtam wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:44 pm
Telemnemonics wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:11 pm
WRT the Marr bridge width, you could write to Stratosphere and ask them to measure it, but they never reply to questions I ask.
There is a whole saga with respect to the Marr bridge that you may not have picked up on yet. :)
- the original Marr jags (incl. the parts Stratosphere are currently offering) have the 0091905000 bridge, which is ~56mm E-E (ie wider than the Staytrem's 52mm, some of whose other features it does have). So Stratosphere's offerings are not likely to be useful currently if a narrow spacing is desired.
- the new Lake Placid Blue version of the Marr guitar has been reported as having a 52mm spaced bridge (which most people prefer)
- that new bridge has become a 'hot' item since Staytrem stopped selling outside the UK recently
- it did not have a known part number, nor was it available aftermarket, until it appeared on the Riley site with the 7712971000 part number last week
- however Riley mistakenly currently calls it an Americian Professional / Marr bridge. As far was we know, that bridge has never appeared on an Am Pro (the true Am Pro bridge is 9.5" radius).
- Riley quotes it as having 2-3/32″ string spacing (53.2mm). Other features are consistent with the Marr bridges, original and new (eg nylon anti-sink bushings on the bridge height posts).
- some people ordered that bridge before it went out of stock, but are yet to receive it so we don't know for sure that it really does have the same narrower 52-53mm string spacing as the bridge on the LPB Marr guitar (Riley's measurements can be approximate at times).

Bridge issues are complicated in offset world. ;)
I have the bridge Riley's selling. It's absolutley 7.25.

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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by NateD81 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:03 am

My Am Pro bridge will be here on Monday and I’m going to pop it on my 60th anni JM - it should be ok I think. I’ve moved the strings out E-E to 56mm with no problem with it slipping off the fretboard (I’m a sloppy player), so hopefully this will work out to be a decent solution for others with the same guitar.

Thanks for updating re: Riley’s bridge being 7.25

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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by NateD81 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:27 pm

Got my American Pro 9.5 radius bridge today and popped it onto my 60th anni MIM JM - highly recommend the swap for anyone interested. E-E doesn’t appear to be an issue at all. I play pretty sloppy and I’m having zero issues with the E strings slipping off the fretboard, doesn’t even seem close to happening. It used to happen to me all the time on my American Special JM, so anyone on the fence that doesn’t want to spring for the Mastery and can’t find a Staytrem, I think you’ll be pretty happy with it.

I will say that to my ears it sounds better, but that may possibly be placebo effect. It most certainly isn’t buzzing or rattling, so that alone has me sold.

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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by timtam » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:47 pm

NateD81 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:27 pm
Got my American Pro 9.5 radius bridge today and popped it onto my 60th anni MIM JM - highly recommend the swap for anyone interested. E-E doesn’t appear to be an issue at all. I play pretty sloppy and I’m having zero issues with the E strings slipping off the fretboard, doesn’t even seem close to happening. It used to happen to me all the time on my American Special JM, so anyone on the fence that doesn’t want to spring for the Mastery and can’t find a Staytrem, I think you’ll be pretty happy with it.
Glad to hear it all worked out.

One thing that occurred to me during this discussion was how all of us tend to worry about 56mm E-E spacing and prefer bridges closer to 52mm like Staytrem. But 56mm spacing doesn't seem to cause issues with E strings being too close to the fretboard edge on all offset guitars. Part of that may be playing style. But the other factors that we don't have much information on are variation in fretboard width, and E-E spacing at the nut. We need more data on those measurements to know when 52mm spacing is likely to be necessary and when it might not be.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by NateD81 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:47 pm

timtam wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:47 pm
NateD81 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:27 pm
Got my American Pro 9.5 radius bridge today and popped it onto my 60th anni MIM JM - highly recommend the swap for anyone interested. E-E doesn’t appear to be an issue at all. I play pretty sloppy and I’m having zero issues with the E strings slipping off the fretboard, doesn’t even seem close to happening. It used to happen to me all the time on my American Special JM, so anyone on the fence that doesn’t want to spring for the Mastery and can’t find a Staytrem, I think you’ll be pretty happy with it.
Glad to hear it all worked out.

One thing that occurred to me during this discussion was how all of us tend to worry about 56mm E-E spacing and prefer bridges closer to 52mm like Staytrem. But 56mm spacing doesn't seem to cause issues with E strings being too close to the fretboard edge on all offset guitars. Part of that may be playing style. But the other factors that we don't have much information on are variation in fretboard width, and E-E spacing at the nut. We need more data on those measurements to know when 52mm spacing is likely to be necessary and when it might not be.
I'm more than happy to measure my fretboard and also my E-E spacing at the nut and post pictures. I'm all about helping to build some knowledge base that will help others make an informed decision. I'm assuming I should measure E slot to E slot on the nut--where do you suggest I measure the fretboard edges to provide helpful information? I'll post pictures as well

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Re: Do I need to consider nut width when swapping the bridge on my JM?

Post by timtam » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:25 pm

NateD81 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:47 pm
timtam wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:47 pm
One thing that occurred to me during this discussion was how all of us tend to worry about 56mm E-E spacing and prefer bridges closer to 52mm like Staytrem. But 56mm spacing doesn't seem to cause issues with E strings being too close to the fretboard edge on all offset guitars. Part of that may be playing style. But the other factors that we don't have much information on are variation in fretboard width, and E-E spacing at the nut. We need more data on those measurements to know when 52mm spacing is likely to be necessary and when it might not be.
I'm more than happy to measure my fretboard and also my E-E spacing at the nut and post pictures. I'm all about helping to build some knowledge base that will help others make an informed decision. I'm assuming I should measure E slot to E slot on the nut--where do you suggest I measure the fretboard edges to provide helpful information? I'll post pictures as well
For the nut E-E spacing I would measure middle of the low E to the middle of high E.

Then a neck width measurement at the nut would tell us - together with the nut E-E above - how close the strings are to the fretboard edge at the top of the neck.

I am not sure that there is a standard way to specify neck width further down the neck. And its ability to vary is constrained by the neck pocket dimensions, which are usually 56mm at the bottom of the pocket. But since neck profile (depth) is specified at the 12th fret, I guess neck width could also be measured there. Maybe it does vary a bit there ... I don't know ?

Another thing we need to know to judge the propensity of strings to go off the edge of the fretboard is whether the fretboard edges are rolled or not. I am not sure that rolling on common US and MIM/MIK/MIC/MIJ offsets has been documented anywhere ? Which models are known to have rolled edges ? The higher end US ones ?

Finally the string gauge together with the scale length gives a decent idea of string tension, which will also influence how easy it is for a string to fall off the edge (just as it influences string bending stiffness).

A higher action will also presumably increase the likelihood that a string could fall off the edge when fretted, as it has further 'room' to move. A higher radius fretboard, and a neck malaligned in the pocket, would also influence things.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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