JM Jaguar intonation issues

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akpasta
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JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by akpasta » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 am

Hi Folks,

I just picked up a used Johnny Marr Jaguar from a shop in NY that shipped it to me here in CA. They claimed to have performed a "set up" and for the most part that seems totally correct. I lowered the action a little bit and put .11 gauge strings on-- I wasn't sure what was on there but I figured if I changed the strings I could be sure!

I also confirmed the intonation by checking the tuning with each string open, and making sure it was still accurate when fretted at the 12th fret. I only had to make a couple of minor adjustments.

The issue I am having is although the intonation is good when strings are played open and played at the 12th fret, the intonation is off in between. What would cause that?

Thanks.

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Fuzzbuzz
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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by Fuzzbuzz » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:14 am

Perhaps I missed something here, but If your intonation is correct open tuning and at the 12th, wouldn’t it would be impossible for it to be off in between?
Last edited by Fuzzbuzz on Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BearBoy
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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by BearBoy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:33 am

Is it worse nearer the nut?

I had an issue with one of my guitars when I put 13s on it and the strings were sitting too high in the nut. Intonation was fine at the 12th fret but out at the 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by akpasta » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:58 am

Hello folks,

It seems to be worse nearer the nut, the top three strings G, B, E around the 4th-6th fret I definitely notice it.

I know sometimes what can produce an issue is the amount of travel a string has to make from open to fretted can sometimes make it "bend" out of tune. I don't know if neck relief can solve this because currently the string height is set as low as possible without buzzing.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by _nash » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:04 am

My first check would be the nut. Especially if you increased string gauge. The nut might nut be cut for 11’s.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by Peckhammer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:20 pm

_nash wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:04 am
My first check would be the nut. Especially if you increased string gauge. The nut might nut be cut for 11’s.
^^^
Yes!

The strings may not be seated in the nut slots because the strings are too wide. You typically cannot increase string gauge without increasing the slot width on the nut. And going the other way can cause problems too.

OP: What kind of tuner are you using? Intonation requires a precise tuner. I use a Peterson strobe tuner. They have an iPhone App that works very well, too. I suggest matching the 12th fret harmonic to the fretted note at the 12th fret. If the open string, 12th fretted and 12th harmonic all match, you're golden.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by akpasta » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:07 pm

Hello,

Does anyone know what gauge the JM Jaguar ships with? The case candy includes a set of .11 strings...so....

Visually, all strings appear seated firmly in the bottom of the nut slots.

Could it be an issue of neck relief with thicker strings? The difference between .10 and .11 and so on seems very minimal. I could see it being an issue with the thicker gauge, wound strings, but I dunno...

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by _nash » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:10 pm

akpasta wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:07 pm

Visually, all strings appear seated firmly in the bottom of the nut slots.
Even if the strings touch the bottom of the slots the nut may be too tall. So you pull the strings sharp when fretting near the nut.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by akpasta » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:14 pm

Hey th
_nash wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:10 pm
akpasta wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:07 pm

Visually, all strings appear seated firmly in the bottom of the nut slots.
Even if the strings touch the bottom of the slots the nut may be too tall. So you pull the strings sharp when fretting near the nut.
I see what you are saying. So does anyone know what gauge strings the guitar was shipped with? Is it .10s? I'll just switch back to 10s and learn to deal if I have to. I don't want to take the thing in and have it worked on for a week.

How do I know that's what's wrong?

It is clear that I am fretting the strings sharp, especially in the lower frets.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by Peckhammer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:21 pm

akpasta wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:07 pm
Could it be an issue of neck relief with thicker strings?
Setup has an order and involves truss rod adjustment, nut slot depth (effecting string clearance over the first fret), saddle height, and intonation. Changing one of those adjustments, with limited exception, has an effect on the others or will require redoing previous steps.

Set the nut slot depth first. This is done with a file. Google for details. Nut slot depth will not be affected by any other adjustment. Then do the truss rod adjustment. General rule of thumb would be to achieve .010" between top of 8th fret and bottom of 6th string while the string is fretted at the first fret (use a capo) and the last. I usually fret the 15th instead in case there is fall away. Then adjust the string height (saddles), and try to follow the neck radius when doing so. Then set intonation.

If you've done this correctly and notes between the first and 12 frets are not right, check the nut. The break point for the nut slot could be in the middle, rather then at the edge. You fix that by filing the slot properly. Other causes would be fret wear or a bad fret job, or the frets are not properly spaced. The latter item is pretty unlikely on a Fender neck.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by _nash » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:19 am

You could switch back to 10’s and have the same problem. Guitars aren’t perfectly setup fron the factory, especially the nut. They’re just roughed in. It won’t take much at all to correct this issue. And it will be worth it. A proper nut will make the guitar easier to play, especially open chords.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by timtam » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:36 am

_nash wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:10 pm
Even if the strings touch the bottom of the slots the nut may be too tall. So you pull the strings sharp when fretting near the nut.
^^ this is the usual explanation for intonated guitars sounding out of tune on the lower frets. What is the action at the first fret ? Aim for around 0.3-0.4mm to stop fretted notes going too sharp.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by akpasta » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:14 am

Hey folks, thanks for chiming in, even though I'm just trying things here and there hoping for a magic bullet and not really doing it the "right way."

So I put the 10 gauge strings back on last night, and I had the same issue as with the 11s. Things go sharp from the 3-5th or maybe 6th fret or so, and are perfect open, with open cords, and above the 7th or so. It's pretty subtle by most people's standards, but enough to irritate me because I do a lot of clean riffing and jangly suspended cords and what not (it's a Johnny Marr guitar after all)

So I put the 11s back on.

Then I tried tightening the truss rod 1/8th turn thinking it might bring the strings closer to the fretboard at those frets. I know you're supposed to wait 24 hours after a truss rod adjustment, but it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

I suppose I'll resign myself to taking it to a shop. BUT. I don't really trust shops. Can someone help me understand exactly what needs doing so I can tell them they need to do it?

Those measurements really help btw. I'll grab some feeler gauges from my motorcycle garage soon and have a measure. By the eyeball test the nut seems tall in general, at least compared to other guitars I've scoped, but we'll see. Like I said, it's not sharp 1st-3rd.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by _nash » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:21 am

Fret the third fret, look at the string clearance above the first fret. It should almost be touching. If there’s a large gap, that’s another indicator of a nut that need work.

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Re: JM Jaguar intonation issues

Post by timtam » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:40 pm

akpasta wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:14 am
I know you're supposed to wait 24 hours after a truss rod adjustment, but it didn't seem to make much of a difference.
You hear the 'wait a day' thing a bit but it's mostly folklore / hearsay. Fortunately you also hear the opposite a lot now. Working truss rods almost always adjust immediately. You can put a relief or string height gauge on a neck and see the numbers change as you make the adjustment, and come back the next day and they will almost always be the same. Guitar techs' work would be a nightmare if they had to wait a day after every adjustment.

Having said that I'm doubtful that relief is the cause of your issue. But a 'nice' number (rather than an exact requirement) would be around 0.3mm at the 7th fret, when capo-ed at the first fret and fretted at the last fret.

What is your action at the 12th fret ?

As I said, a high nut would still be the first suspect IMHO.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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