Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

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j_flanders
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Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by j_flanders » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:20 pm

Hi,

The truss rod on my Squier Vintage Modified Jazzmaster is maxed out and there is still a bit too much relief.
Not realizing it was maxed out, I also slightly stripped the truss rod nut, but gladly, with some effort, I can still unscrew it.

I tried the loosening, clamping and retightening trick but that didn't help much.

I have read the thread about adding washers but it seems that washers from a regular hardware store don't fit and need to be adjusted (for which I don't have the tools).

I have also read somewhere that there exist longer truss rod nuts, but I don't know if those also exist for Squier VM Jazzmasters.

So, does anyone know with 100% certainty (I really don't want to damage the thread on the truss rod itself!) where I can buy:
- washers that fit
- trussrod nut with correct threading and diameter (preferably a longer one than the stock version)

I'm in europe, so a link to some online store/webshop here would be best.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by Kent » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:42 pm

I’m going to suggest a different path and I won’t address the stripped nut & possibly damaged trussrod.

To get the neck back to proper relief, you can take it off and loosen the truss-rod entirely. Take the nut off and clean the threads and of the nut and truss-rod while you are in there. Place the neck (like a bridge) across two stacks of books (or whatever) and then place a weight upon the middle of the neck. Depending upon several factors, your neck will be straight to slightly convex within several hours. I’ve had great success with this technique on an American Jazzmaster and an Italian guitar from the 1960’s.

Be sure to clean the nut and threads and then apply fresh lubricant.

Or buy a new neck. That was Fender’s original intention with the bolt-ons and you won’t risk much of a financial hit with a Squier.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by timtam » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:29 pm

So it's the headstock truss rod that's got the wooden plug that stops you getting the nut out ? Or do you already have the nut out ? And it's a 4mm hex key adjustment right ?
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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by j_flanders » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:54 am

Kent wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:42 pm
Place the neck (like a bridge) across two stacks of books (or whatever) and then place a weight upon the middle of the neck. Depending upon several factors, your neck will be straight to slightly convex within several hours.
I've read about this and the only reason I've not tried it, is that there doesn't seem to be a clear set of 'rules' on how to do this, as opposed to simply adding a washer or longer nut.
Some people talk about steam, others about ovens or laying in the sun, some speak of hours others about days or weeks.
I guess too much experimentation with regard to force/weight and time and generally on how to go about this and the outcome has withheld me.

On the other hand this could be preferable over adding washers, because the problem might actually be wood/timber compression and adding washers might only be a temporary solution and after some time I might run out of thread after adding too many washers.
The clamping trick might also be temporary but at least it's infinitely repeatable. I think I'll give it a go. Any suggestions on where to (not) place the books/'bridge poles' and where to put or hang the weight and how much?

I still do need a new nut though.
timtam wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:29 pm
So it's the headstock truss rod that's got the wooden plug that stops you getting the nut out ? Or do you already have the nut out ? And it's a 4mm hex key adjustment right ?
Luckily it's not the kind with the wooden plug.
I can keep unscrewing the truss rod nut until at some point it seems to be unattached from the truss rod. Do I simply pull it out with pliers at that point?

According to the specs it's 4mm. Compared to my other guitars I've always found that with this one there's quite a bit of play between the allen key and the nut. Kinda loose and wobbly, while with other guitars their allen keys fit tight and snugly.
I tried fitting (not turning) several different allen keys: 3.5mm, 4.5mm and some of those odd imperial sized ones. But they were all slightly too small or too big. It's definitely 4mm but with a bit of play... Maybe that's what you get when buying a Squier.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by oid » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:23 am

Just hunt down some washers that will fit and get a new nut before you fully strip it while it is on the rod, which would likely require surgery to remedy, a damaged nut is easy to strip. There are plenty of places online to order hardware from and generally suitable washers can be found, worst case you get some with suitable outer diameters and take a rat tail file to open the center up wide enough, if you need to do that get brass washers, much easier to file.

The book trick may or may not work or may make a new problem, there is some gamble there, it being far from a precise method.

It could also be a hump in the end of the fretboard, not all that uncommon in Fender style neck. If the neck from the first fret to the 16th or so is good and flat and the relief comes in at those last frets, it is often the fret board. stick a capo on 1, fret 12, any relief between 1 and 12? If not fret higher up and see when the relief starts coming in.
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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by timtam » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:06 pm

The Squier truss rod nut for 4mm should be Fender p/n 0079849000 ...
http://www.squier-talk.com/threads/squi ... post-79825

Available, although maybe not widely so ...
http://darrenriley.com/store/fender-squ ... 079849000/
https://reverb.com/au/p/fender-truss-ro ... allen-2016

Squier truss rod is apparently also 4mm diameter, but you can check that on the other end of the nut once you have it out. Anyway get some thickish washers around M4 that will fit in the neck hole and give the nut greater rod-tightening effect before it runs out of thread. Similar to here (albeit different rod) ...
http://chrisporro.com/?p=936

So nut comes out. Washers go in. New nut gets a dab of lube and then goes on ...
https://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_R ... tion_.html
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by j_flanders » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:08 am

Thanks for those links. So, that darrenriley shop seems to be the only one.
If I do the math: nut + shipping costs + import taxes + vat + handling fee it's going to be around 70$ or 80$ for a nut.
To quote that reverb.com page: "Aw, shucks.". That's nuts...

I'll send some European shops an email request along with that part number.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by oid » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:16 am

j_flanders wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:08 am
Thanks for those links. So, that darrenriley shop seems to be the only one.
If I do the math: nut + shipping costs + import taxes + vat + handling fee it's going to be around 70$ or 80$ for a nut.
To quote that reverb.com page: "Aw, shucks.". That's nuts...

I'll send some European shops an email request along with that part number.
Just find your nearest authorized Fender dealer or repair shop, they likely will have one, if not, can get you one. Any well supplied luthier will likely have some on hand as well.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by timtam » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:26 am

I feel your pain. I'm currently after a Fender microtilt screw that retails for US$2.79. Or around US$40 shipped to here.

The Squier nut is almost certainly a generic Asian metric truss rod nut. So you could take a chance ...
https://www.customworldguitarparts.com/ ... rn-20.html

I've also heard of people who have had wrong-size truss rod nuts re-threaded to the right size in a pinch. That should be an easy job for any engineering shop if there's enough metal to work with.
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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by j_flanders » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:42 am

timtam wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:26 am
The Squier nut is almost certainly a generic Asian metric truss rod nut. So you could take a chance ...
Since it says "Cort" on the label, it probably is:
Image
Great find! With that info and googling on "Truss rod nut 4mm and 10-32 thread guitar & bass TRN-20" I get a lot more results nearby and also in shops where I was about to order other stuff as well.
I'll let you know how it worked out.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by oid » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:37 am

j_flanders wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:42 am
Truss rod nut 4mm and 10-32 thread guitar & bass TRN-20"
The 4mm nuts still have imperial threading? I always assumed they would have metric threads.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by Kent » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:01 pm

This is an odd train of thought to observe.

The OP’s core problem is that his neck is so deeply concave that no amount of tightening the truss rod will fix it and overtightening it has damaged the nut.

The neck’s degree of relief is ignored and all but one subsequent participant in the conversation suggest getting a new nut and having another go at it. Yeah, that’ll do it.

And as far as “rules” go... what are you on about, sir? The prescription is to simply loosen the truss-rod completely and put the neck back into being perfectly straight or with a small degree of convex curvature before putting the neck back on the guitar. Not pre-straightening the neck -thereby fixing the problem at its root- will have the OP ending up back at the same place with a new, expensive and freshly stripped nut.

Again, the problem to fix first is the neck curvature that caused the stripped nut.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by j_flanders » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:43 pm

Kent wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:01 pm
The OP’s core problem is that his neck is so deeply concave that no amount of tightening the truss rod will fix it and overtightening it has damaged the nut.
That, we don't know yet. :)
Several people reported having success by adding a washer (or two) to have just that little bit more tension. Well that or a longer truss rod nut.
I just need that little bit extra. If the problem returns after that, I'll have to take other measures.
I'm playing 11's by the way, so nothing excessive.

I sent an email to the shop where I bought the guitar and they replied that I should fill out a special form to order a 'spare part'. They would make me an estimate which would cost 10 or 15 euros ... plus cost of the 'spare part', plus shipping, so: 30 euros for a nut...
I haven't filled out the form (yet).
Last edited by j_flanders on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by oid » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:47 pm

Kent wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:01 pm
This is an odd train of thought to observe.

The OP’s core problem is that his neck is so deeply concave that no amount of tightening the truss rod will fix it and overtightening it has damaged the nut.

The neck’s degree of relief is ignored and all but one subsequent participant in the conversation suggest getting a new nut and having another go at it. Yeah, that’ll do it.

And as far as “rules” go... what are you on about, sir? The prescription is to simply loosen the truss-rod completely and put the neck back into being perfectly straight or with a small degree of convex curvature before putting the neck back on the guitar. Not pre-straightening the neck -thereby fixing the problem at its root- will have the OP ending up back at the same place with a new, expensive and freshly stripped nut.

Again, the problem to fix first is the neck curvature that caused the stripped nut.
You assume the neck is bowed without tension, which even if it is, OP will still need washers inserted to make the truss rod function.

The wood which bears the nut is compressed by the force as you tighten it, the truss rod has a limit of force it can apply and the wood can only be compressed so much, once the wood hits this maximum the truss rod works purely as truss rod and no longer crushes the wood. Some necks compress a fair amount and run out of threads, some very little, depends on the density of the particular piece of wood. Running out of threads on a Fender style rod is not a sign of a bowed neck.

For average guitarist the proper procedure is to install washers and see if that works, if that does not solve it look into other avenues or just take it to a luthier.

There were assumptions made in this thread, the main one being what is actually stripped? The head, the thread of the nut or the thread of the rod. The posts suggest it is the head, which is almost always caused by an improperly seated or sized wrench, not an excess of force. The lesser assumption being where exactly the neck is bowed, this could easily just be a rise in the end of the fingerboard due to the concentration of stresses and the anchor point of the neck, OP would still need the washers and it would be the easiest path for the average guitarist to isolate the issue. Both of these assumptions were also made by you.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: Squier VMJM truss rod maxed out

Post by j_flanders » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:56 pm

oid wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:47 pm
The posts suggest it is the head, which is almost always caused by an improperly seated or sized wrench
Correct, my fault. Although no allen key ever fitted snugly, it only became a problem when the truss rod was getting maxed out (which I did not realise) and I had to apply more force.
See my first post:
j_flanders wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:54 am
According to the specs it's 4mm. Compared to my other guitars I've always found that with this one there's quite a bit of play between the allen key and the nut. Kinda loose and wobbly, while with other guitars their allen keys fit tight and snugly.
I tried fitting (not turning) several different allen keys: 3.5mm, 4.5mm and some of those odd imperial sized ones. But they were all slightly too small or too big. It's definitely 4mm but with a bit of play... Maybe that's what you get when buying a Squier.

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