Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

For help with setups and other technical issues.
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Unicorn Warrior
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Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:43 am

I haven't dabbled much in alternate timings but have found one I like. I plan to add another guitar to my arsenal and was curious about a few things.

My questions:

What gauge strings would you use for this? And what scale length would work best?

The usual A and D strings would be tuned quite a bit higher

I'm thinking for about picking up a JMJM or possible a Squier Tele. I guess tuning stability will be a factor
Last edited by Unicorn Warrior on Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by oid » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:43 pm

The simple way is just to get the D'Addario string tension chart.

www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

Figure out the tensions for a set of strings you like and then just select new strings by tension/pitch, this wll work for any brand of strings, just use the same type of string and you will generally be close enough. Go where ever and order your strings by singles and the new set will feel more or less like your standard strings. From there you can just use the chart to make up a heavier or lighter set depending on needs, if you want to get some slide work in, heavier strings would be a good idea.

Scale length can just be what ever you prefer but shorter scales do have some advantages. Their quirks with intonation tend to fatten up the harmony work which is common with open tuning playing and if you want to play with slide the shorter scale makes for easier slants.

The only thing you may need to change is getting the nut either replaced or recut for the new string gauges to make sure there is no binding/slop in the slots, the rest is standard setup. A guitar with a bridge that has a decent range of intonation adjustment never hurts when experimenting, but a workable set of strings is generally doable for most tunings even on a JazzzMaster, it is just not as forgiving and you may have to sacrifice optimal tension to get optimal intonation.
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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by jesterpunk68 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:55 pm

For a lot of the stranger alternate tunings the best place to look is at the Sonic Youth tuning guide.

Here

http://www.sonicyouth.com/mustang/tab/index.html

and their gear guide

http://www.sonicyouth.com/mustang/eq/gear.html

They list the string gauges they use for each tuning and how to tune each string.

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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:11 pm

Thanks guys. This is overwhelmingly good information

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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:15 am

oid wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:43 pm

Scale length can just be what ever you prefer but shorter scales do have some advantages. Their quirks with intonation tend to fatten up the harmony work which is common with open tuning playing and if you want to play with slide the shorter scale makes for easier slants.
So when talking about shortscales, what you mean by this is the intonation descrepency is a good thing? Or intonation is more easily achieved with them?

So strong tension is easier to dial in on a short scale as opposed to longer scale. That makes sense

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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by oid » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:14 pm

The simple explanation is that in fretting a note we have to bend the string down to the fret to fret it, this sharpens the pitch just like when we bend a string, so we adjust the saddles to get a perfect octave at the 12th and go on about our way. There is a catch though, the amount of distance you have to push a string down at the 12th fret is not the same as it is at the first fret or any other fret, we can compensate for this to a point with neck relief, getting the nut slots as low as we can and even the occasional compensated nut, some even go as far as fanned frets or even compensated frets, but it is best not to talk about those sorts in polite company. A shorter scale instrument will generally have a higher action, so we are bending the string further to get it down to the fret and we have to increase our compensation at the 12th fret to get our octave just making things worse at the first fret.

For the way most of us play guitar it is not much of an issue, these tuning errors are mostly noticed in melody work which we do not do much of in the early frets anyways and even when we do, few notice unless they are looking at a tuner or someone points it out to them (did I just ruin the lives of half of the jag players here?) The end result is that we have a small (insignificant) tuning error that is slightly worse (slightly less insignificant) on a 24" scale, it makes chords sound fuller, some of the big chords always will sound off and the occasional melody line will need abit of bending here and there which we compensate for out of habit, we all learned how to bend strings into tune early on when we learned how to not press to hard and bend our strings out of tune when fretting. We also all learned to temper our tuning to compensate for our instruments and our playing, ever notice when you pickup someone elses instrument there is always at least one string that is a tiny bit off even if they just tuned it?

What it all comes down to is those of us who play 24" scale guitars are better musicians since we can not rely on the instrument to be "close enough," we wiggle every note into perfection and our chords just sound better.
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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by Embenny » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:38 pm

I disagree with the part you said about short scale instruments having higher action and more strong displacement.

By far the biggest factor in my experience is fret size. On jumbo frets you can bend a note a quartertone sharp just by overapplying pressure. Jumbo frets on a shortscale do these to an even greater degree. That's why I prefer vintage frets on my jags and Jazzmasters. I think a lot of intonation woes on shortscales are blamed on other factors when they stem from large frets and a death grip.

One of my bandmates has a Mustang 90 with medium jumbo frets, and I've noticed certain chords where he must be squeezing too hard because the fretted notes are way sharp. I picked up his guitar and the intonation clocks in as correct on a tuner, but once again I could bend notes almost a quartertone sharp by overapplying fretting pressure.

I have 4 mustang necks and 3 jags with vintage frets and this is not an issue.
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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by oid » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:13 pm

I disagree with the part you said about short scale instruments having higher action and more strong displacement.
You are disagreeing with physics, not me. Big frets or scalloped finger boards do allow for bending out of tune due to finger pressure but this is not a scale induced error,, many short scale instruments have short frets, especially acoustic 24 inchers. This has nothing to do with intonation at the 12th fret, we compensate for that at the bridge regardless of scale and even if you did check the intonation at all frets, most guitar tuners do not have the resolution to show the error, this error is mostly noticed between strings, playing the octaves in the first position will allow you to hear the error on even a long scale perfectly intonated instrument.

In electrics this is not as much of an issue for many players, they will set the action the same as they would for a longer scale and just play lighter to avoid excessive string buzzing, the amp can take up the small volume loss, this lessens the error but there is still greater error in the shorter scale due to the qualities of the string and the lessened tension. I left the string out of the equation in my simplified answer, it is more complexity then most anyone needs and those who are interested can do the research, the information is readily available, looking into fanned frets will guide you to the information, fanned frets were developed to lessen the effect of the string on intonation.

As I said, this effect is small and a non-issue for most players, it's overall effect is a change in tone and not sounding out of tune.
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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:03 pm

You know, I think I understand the short scale a bit more after reading this. Thanks. I play a Jaguar in standard tuning at the moment. It just works really well for me ergonomically as my fingers are able to reach more notes.

There are 2 other guitars I plan on getting for two different tunings im wanting to try to incorporate.

So essentially, the short scales will typically sound more full, while the long scales will be more accurate?

Even though the differences probably aren't much, any advantage I could incorporate would help achieve the sound I'm after.

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Re: Calling Alternate Tuning Guys: Set-up Suggestions

Post by oid » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:27 pm

So essentially, the short scales will typically sound more full, while the long scales will be more accurate?
Pretty much, the intonation issues of a 24" scale can cause problems in playing somethings. I use a few different methods to tune my 24" to standard, or a mix of them for some pieces. Tuning by the 5th and 7th fret harmonics is good enough for most things, but I will often tune one or more strings at the fretted 5th/4th string or octaves with open strings at the second fret. Eric Satie's Gymnopedies are one of those, the error really throws it off since the beat frequencies set the pace of the piece.

When it comes down to it the guitar is only in tune in the rock band situation, the piano and orchestra play a tempered 12 tone scale, only fixed fret instruments and the synth strive for perfect equal temperament and compared to the synth the guitar fails, but who notices?
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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