Shim.. or No shim..

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LHR
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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by LHR » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:37 pm

Well, well! The Stewmac shims look fantastic! These are very hard to make precisely at home. My only objection to shims would be obviated using this part (over the very long run, a possible hump developing using a shim that doesn't cover the whole pocket area.) Now the essential question: which one(s) to buy? For a typical Jazzmaster or Jaguar, what angle should I aim for? 0.5? 1.0? I never really measured the angles I've come up with, in degrees. Any help would be much appreciated. I'd love to take out the slivers of random business cards I've used over the years; however, just buying an assortment to test is cost prohibitive.

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by JVG » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:00 pm

I find it strange that back in the day fender didn't rout angled neck pockets to eliminate (or at least reduce) the need for shims. Seems like a fairly obvious solution. I know they do it on some of the more recent models.

Anyway.....

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by jellodog » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:36 pm

Nothing wrong with shimming if you need it to improve your setup.

I shimmed one of my guitars (the blue one in my avatar) and I did a great deal of research at the time (a lot of it on this forum). I came to the conclusion that it's entirely normal practice to shim and nothing to worry about. The shim improved my break angle and fixed the action because my neck pocket was little shallow and the neck was sitting too high.

I've subsequently shown the shimmed guitar to 2 different luthiers and they didn't bat an eye when the shim was mentioned. In terms of pros and cons: There shouldn't be a sustain problem if the shim is fitted correctly.

I don't know about modern day Fender guitar manufacturing techniques, but I believe that back in the day, a significant number of Fender guitars left the factory with shims, so it's clearly no big deal.

The Classic Player offsets have angled neck pockets and shims are therefore not required.

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by JVG » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:02 am

I agree its no big deal - I use shims when needed. All I'm saying is that I'm surprised fender - way back in the early days - didn't angle the neck pocket rout to reduce the need for shims. Especially for offsets, which seem to require them as standard. strats and teles seem a bit more mixed, in my experience.

Cheers!
J.

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by jellodog » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 am

JVG wrote:All I'm saying is that I'm surprised fender - way back in the early days - didn't angle the neck pocket rout to reduce the need for shims.
Oh yes, I'm in total agreement with you JVG! I understood the point you were making and I should have made it clearer that I was replying to the OP. Apologies :-)

The only reason I can think of, is that it's easy to use a router on a flat plane, and I'd guess that's what Fender did for the neck pocket with the body lying flat, and the pocket was probably routed at the exact same time as the rest of the body routes (pickup, controls etc.). Simple, quick and efficient.

To route an angled pocket would involve some sort of special jig to be set up in order to move the router at an angle, and even then perhaps it's probably error prone, time-consuming and difficult. I'd guess it just wasn't worth the hassle in 1958.

This is the exact reason I spoke to a luthier about my partsmaster JM, actually; I'd already shimmed it, but was wondering if it was possible to alter the neck pocket to be more like the angled Classic Player pocket, which is absolutely perfect on my CP. He said that he could do it, but it would need a custom jig created and that it wasn't the quick job that I'd imagined.

Of course these days, the angled Classic Player neck pocket would be cut by a CNC machine in a matter of seconds, so no longer a production headache.
Last edited by jellodog on Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:54 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Lock
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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by Lock » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:55 am

2/5 of my bolt neck fenders have shims. I find I prefer no shim or minimal shim on TOM guitars unless it is needed to accommodate the TOM's slight height increase over the traditional bridge. I want the bridge as low as possible as I don't want to exaggerate the already increased sustain of the TOM bridge.

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by JVG » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:44 am

jellodog wrote: To route an angled pocket would involve some sort of special jig to be set up in order to move the router at an angle, and even then perhaps it's probably error prone, time-consuming and difficult. I'd guess it just wasn't worth the hassle in 1958.

This is the exact reason I spoke to a luthier about my partsmaster JM, actually; I'd already shimmed it, but was wondering if it was possible to alter the neck pocket to be more like the angled Classic Player pocket, which is absolutely perfect on my CP.
Hadn't thought about that, but you're right - it probably would have been a case of fender taking the easiest option, i.e. the flat rout.

I took one of my offsets to a local luthier, who quickly (and very cleanly I might add) angled the neck pocket rout. I think it was only by about 1 to 1.5 mm at the headstock end, but it did the trick. No more shims for that baby.

Cheers!
J.

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by toma19 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:05 pm

I feel that the shim on my Squier added some sustain, but mostly allowed better action on the whole neck. What surprises me is that Fender didn't/doesn't use the "micro tilt" system on offsets, as it is maybe THE kind of Fenders that need it. (maybe they did, but i am not aware of it...)
I think it would be a great improvement, as it allows you to fine tune the neck with the whole strings-trem-bridge on. I had it on a bass, and i found it really easy for the action setting.
Has anyone here tried to put this kind of neck on a jazzie?

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by secondhand » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:01 pm

If anyone cares, I labored over MS Paint to provide a diagram showing how I shim my guitar necks.
I like for the neck to make direct contact with the far edge of the neck pocket and rest on a shim at the near edge. In the middle of the pocket I will use a thinner shim to add a bit of support to that portion of the neck. I would love to try the Stew Mac shims. They cost a mint though.
I once asked a guy at a "maker" fair about making them using a 3D printer. He either had no idea what he was talking about or they are the hardest item ever conceived by man to create.


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Lock
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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by Lock » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:06 pm

Ha, havening 3D printed a fair bit, that would be incredibly easy to design and print. I don't have one where I work now though.

I tech here makes them at different °s and charges $20 or something for them, which seems fair given the annoyance of making them precisely.

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by secondhand » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:54 pm

I had a feeling the "maker" was just a "poser"!
I saw a thread somewhere where a guy used a guitar string as a shim and filled the neckpocket with an epoxy. He bolted the neck back on squeezing out he excess epoxy to create a custom full pocket shim. Naturally, there was some cleanup involved.
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Embenny
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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by Embenny » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:42 pm

secondhand wrote:I had a feeling the "maker" was just a "poser"!
I saw a thread somewhere where a guy used a guitar string as a shim and filled the neckpocket with an epoxy. He bolted the neck back on squeezing out he excess epoxy to create a custom full pocket shim. Naturally, there was some cleanup involved.
That's probably the least-efficient method of manufacturing a shim you could possibly conceive, but I admire his determination!
The artist formerly known as mbene085.

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Benjammin
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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by Benjammin » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:18 am

for those who have the Stew Mac shims, which size/degree do you use? is it worth getting a 3 pack to experiment?

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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by Axolotl » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:31 am

^^^ It kinda varies form guitar to guitar, but the 0.5 angle works like a charm in most my jazzmasters.

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Bronco Billy
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Re: Shim.. or No shim..

Post by Bronco Billy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:59 pm

I used to shim my JM's, but I had too many issues with high E string unraveling. I use the Mastery. Found out if I shim Less it doesn't unravel.

Liked it better shimmed hard, to get better break angle over the bridge.

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