Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

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RoséBear
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Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by RoséBear » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:15 pm

Hey guys, so I’ve now fitted two guitars with mastery thimbles and they’re causing nothing but problems for me. Are the strings supposed to glide back and fourth over the saddles? I thought that’s how they were supposed to work. Well that’s working, but it seems like the strings are scoring marks on the saddles with vibrato use on the E and A saddles. didn’t have this problem with the other cups I used, which were a tad looser. Now the strings creek when I use the vibrato. Anyone else have this problem too? Am I doing something wrong?

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by MechaBulletBill » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:03 am

lubricate the point of contact where the string meets the bridge?

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by timtam » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:24 am

Fixed bridges like the Mastery rely on low friction (the opposite of rocking bridges), in order that the strings can slide easily over the saddles with trem use. Mastery makes a big deal of their low friction, viz.
"All of our Offset bridge saddles are made of solid brass and we plate them with a unique, self-lubricating hard chrome plating not found on any other guitar bridge. Hard chrome plating demonstrates excellent hardness and lubricity, and is the premier engineering choice to reduce friction, minimize wear and eliminate the heat/tuning issues caused by vibrato use string/saddle friction. Our hard chrome plating also protects the saddle from wear, preventing grooves formed in the saddle over time, versus stainless steel and plain brass."
https://masterybridge.com/bridges/offset-bridge/
Any rocking of a fixed bridge indicates that the strings are 'gripping' the saddles due to friction, rather than sliding freely.

The actual friction experienced by the saddle depends on string tension, string break angle, and lubrication. Zollner calculated that a (small) 5 degree increase in string break angle over the saddle could double the downforce and thus the friction force.
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/2019/08/ ... s-on-line/
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/wp-conte ... namics.pdf

So attempts to reduce friction could involve one or more of lower gauge strings, extra lubrication, or reduced break angle. Reducing the break angle would require lowering the bridge/saddles, which might require reducing a downward shimmed neck (eg by removing an existing shim), or reverse shimming a neck with a machined pocket angle.
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RoséBear
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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by RoséBear » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:34 am

timtam wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:24 am
Fixed bridges like the Mastery rely on low friction (the opposite of rocking bridges), in order that the strings can slide easily over the saddles with trem use. Mastery makes a big deal of their low friction, viz.
"All of our Offset bridge saddles are made of solid brass and we plate them with a unique, self-lubricating hard chrome plating not found on any other guitar bridge. Hard chrome plating demonstrates excellent hardness and lubricity, and is the premier engineering choice to reduce friction, minimize wear and eliminate the heat/tuning issues caused by vibrato use string/saddle friction. Our hard chrome plating also protects the saddle from wear, preventing grooves formed in the saddle over time, versus stainless steel and plain brass."
https://masterybridge.com/bridges/offset-bridge/
Any rocking of a fixed bridge indicates that the strings are 'gripping' the saddles due to friction, rather than sliding freely.

The actual friction experienced by the saddle depends on string tension, string break angle, and lubrication. Zollner calculated that a (small) 5 degree increase in string break angle over the saddle could double the downforce and thus the friction force.
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/2019/08/ ... s-on-line/
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/wp-conte ... namics.pdf

So attempts to reduce friction could involve one or more of lower gauge strings, extra lubrication, or reduced break angle. Reducing the break angle would require lowering the bridge/saddles, which might require reducing a downward shimmed neck (eg by removing an existing shim), or reverse shimming a neck with a machined pocket angle.
So I did as you said, removed a shim and lubed rhw saddles a bit. Seems like it worked! Will this effect my set up at all besides having to lower the mastery?

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by adamrobertt » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:37 pm

RoséBear wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:34 am
timtam wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:24 am
Fixed bridges like the Mastery rely on low friction (the opposite of rocking bridges), in order that the strings can slide easily over the saddles with trem use. Mastery makes a big deal of their low friction, viz.
"All of our Offset bridge saddles are made of solid brass and we plate them with a unique, self-lubricating hard chrome plating not found on any other guitar bridge. Hard chrome plating demonstrates excellent hardness and lubricity, and is the premier engineering choice to reduce friction, minimize wear and eliminate the heat/tuning issues caused by vibrato use string/saddle friction. Our hard chrome plating also protects the saddle from wear, preventing grooves formed in the saddle over time, versus stainless steel and plain brass."
https://masterybridge.com/bridges/offset-bridge/
Any rocking of a fixed bridge indicates that the strings are 'gripping' the saddles due to friction, rather than sliding freely.

The actual friction experienced by the saddle depends on string tension, string break angle, and lubrication. Zollner calculated that a (small) 5 degree increase in string break angle over the saddle could double the downforce and thus the friction force.
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/2019/08/ ... s-on-line/
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/wp-conte ... namics.pdf

So attempts to reduce friction could involve one or more of lower gauge strings, extra lubrication, or reduced break angle. Reducing the break angle would require lowering the bridge/saddles, which might require reducing a downward shimmed neck (eg by removing an existing shim), or reverse shimming a neck with a machined pocket angle.
So I did as you said, removed a shim and lubed rhw saddles a bit. Seems like it worked! Will this effect my set up at all besides having to lower the mastery?
You should double check your intonation if you lowered it a lot.

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by hwestman » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:11 am

I am very pleased with the function of my Mastery BUT I also had the high E-string make a groove in the saddle.

Mastery did replace it for free though.

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by RoséBear » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:43 pm

I’m bumping this thread because I’m still having this problem all this time later, and I have a video to show it. If you give your guitar an open e chord-strum, let it ring out a little, then drop the trem, I get a sharp pinging from the strings binding at the bridge. Most notably, the high E. Everyone on another thread advised against using extra lubrication with these bridges so I’m pretty much out of ideas

(Not the nut or the string tree, they were removed from the equation in the example and I’ve replaced this saddle two times. Current saddle in there is brand new. Tried abrasive cord, that actually sanded through the chrome finish. Guitar is set up properly, has mastery thimbles, has no shim, bridge is close to the body.)

https://youtu.be/icFdmrC8KeQ

Thanks for everyone whose tried to help, much appreciated. I am figuring this is just a quirk the bridge has, but I’m not sure anyone is having this same experience

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by adamrobertt » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:51 am

RoséBear wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:43 pm
I’m bumping this thread because I’m still having this problem all this time later, and I have a video to show it. If you give your guitar an open e chord-strum, let it ring out a little, then drop the trem, I get a sharp pinging from the strings binding at the bridge. Most notably, the high E. Everyone on another thread advised against using extra lubrication with these bridges so I’m pretty much out of ideas

(Not the nut or the string tree, they were removed from the equation in the example and I’ve replaced this saddle two times. Current saddle in there is brand new. Tried abrasive cord, that actually sanded through the chrome finish. Guitar is set up properly, has mastery thimbles, has no shim, bridge is close to the body.)

https://youtu.be/icFdmrC8KeQ

Thanks for everyone whose tried to help, much appreciated. I am figuring this is just a quirk the bridge has, but I’m not sure anyone is having this same experience
I don't think this is a common problem. I haven't heard of it until now, which makes me think that your issue is not being caused by the bridge but by something else.

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by RoséBear » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:38 am

adamrobertt wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:51 am
RoséBear wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:43 pm
I’m bumping this thread because I’m still having this problem all this time later, and I have a video to show it. If you give your guitar an open e chord-strum, let it ring out a little, then drop the trem, I get a sharp pinging from the strings binding at the bridge. Most notably, the high E. Everyone on another thread advised against using extra lubrication with these bridges so I’m pretty much out of ideas

(Not the nut or the string tree, they were removed from the equation in the example and I’ve replaced this saddle two times. Current saddle in there is brand new. Tried abrasive cord, that actually sanded through the chrome finish. Guitar is set up properly, has mastery thimbles, has no shim, bridge is close to the body.)

https://youtu.be/icFdmrC8KeQ

Thanks for everyone whose tried to help, much appreciated. I am figuring this is just a quirk the bridge has, but I’m not sure anyone is having this same experience
I don't think this is a common problem. I haven't heard of it until now, which makes me think that your issue is not being caused by the bridge but by something else.
I would tend to agree! But the fact that this has happened across multiple guitars (MIA parts jaguar, Amer. Pro jazzmaster) with entirely different “setups” makes that hard to believe.

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by adamrobertt » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:46 am

RoséBear wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:38 am
adamrobertt wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:51 am
RoséBear wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:43 pm
I’m bumping this thread because I’m still having this problem all this time later, and I have a video to show it. If you give your guitar an open e chord-strum, let it ring out a little, then drop the trem, I get a sharp pinging from the strings binding at the bridge. Most notably, the high E. Everyone on another thread advised against using extra lubrication with these bridges so I’m pretty much out of ideas

(Not the nut or the string tree, they were removed from the equation in the example and I’ve replaced this saddle two times. Current saddle in there is brand new. Tried abrasive cord, that actually sanded through the chrome finish. Guitar is set up properly, has mastery thimbles, has no shim, bridge is close to the body.)

https://youtu.be/icFdmrC8KeQ

Thanks for everyone whose tried to help, much appreciated. I am figuring this is just a quirk the bridge has, but I’m not sure anyone is having this same experience
I don't think this is a common problem. I haven't heard of it until now, which makes me think that your issue is not being caused by the bridge but by something else.
I would tend to agree! But the fact that this has happened across multiple guitars (MIA parts jaguar, Amer. Pro jazzmaster) with entirely different “setups” makes that hard to believe.
It's possible that your bridge is just defective. Have you contacted Mastery about it?

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by RoséBear » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 am

adamrobertt wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:46 am
RoséBear wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:38 am
adamrobertt wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:51 am


I don't think this is a common problem. I haven't heard of it until now, which makes me think that your issue is not being caused by the bridge but by something else.
I would tend to agree! But the fact that this has happened across multiple guitars (MIA parts jaguar, Amer. Pro jazzmaster) with entirely different “setups” makes that hard to believe.
It's possible that your bridge is just defective. Have you contacted Mastery about it?
I have, and they sent me some new saddles. Same deal.

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by DeathJag » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:03 am

Apologies if you have, but have you tried thicker strings?

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by adamrobertt » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:21 am

DeathJag wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:03 am
Apologies if you have, but have you tried thicker strings?
I'm not sure how this would help. Also it isn't necessary with a Mastery. I have 10s on my JM and its the best it's ever played.

Also I don't really buy the "you need heavy strings on an offset" spiel. It just isn't true. What you do need is a good setup.

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by RoséBear » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:22 pm

DeathJag wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:03 am
Apologies if you have, but have you tried thicker strings?
No quite alright! Thanks for your input.

I’m currently using 11s, which is probably as high as I’ll go.

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Re: Huge Mastery Problem: Creaking

Post by Telliot » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:44 pm

Huh. That’s really weird. I’ve had a few Mastery equipped JMs and never had this happen. I can’t think what would be causing a pinging sound in the construction of the bridge itself. You said this happens when you transfer the bridge to different guitars? It almost sounds like it’s coming from the spring or collet, but I guess it can’t be if you’re able to reproduce the sound on other guitars. The only other thing I can think of is some slippage in the height screws of the saddles, or the saddles are hitting each other as you move the trem arm? Does the sound go away if you raise the Mastery, increasing the break angle? I’m truly baffled by this.
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.

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