String tension curiosity

[niksureal]

So i recently made a custom set of strings; ghs 11's on the three treble strings and daddario chromes 11's on the bass three. the total tension is 134lbs and its incredibly balanced all the way across. typical sets of strings seem to be around 120lbs so i know im not treading dangerous waters or anything but i was curious... when does string tension become dangerous (in regards to lbs of tension)?
i know dick dale used(uses?) 16-60 on a strat in standard tuning and i have read that sune from the raveonettes uses 15s tuned up to f# (though now i cant find the source for this and am aware he tunes down for stuff too). regardless, thats not the point. the point is high tension. when does it become a damaging force on a guitar?
i ask because 11's are starting to feel wimpy to me and im already making higher tension sets at low gauges. im also worried because i mainly use mosrites/mosrite style guitars and they arent known for having the strongest neck joints.

[oid]

Whe

when does string tension become dangerous (in regards to lbs of tension)?

Your fingers will fail before the guitar.

On guitars with angled headstocks and single piece neck like Gibson's, risk of a headstock break does go up with tension, but not a great deal. It is still that fall or such that does it in.

You are still nowhere near 12 string territory tension wise.

[timtam]

Did you notice any change in relief / action with going to the higher gauge ? If things work linearly (actually unlikely), a 10% increase in tension might be expected to increase a typical relief of 0.2-0.3mm by maybe 0.04mm. Probably not something you will notice. But the more relief you have, the more bowing force a given tension will exert (the less relief you have, more of the string force will go to compression instead). So a neck with 10s and lots of relief is under more bending stress than one with 13s and no relief.

I wouldn't worry.

[effmylife]

Yeah those silly string companies, what do they know.

[oid]

If things work linearly (actually unlikely), a 10% increase in tension might be expected to increase a typical relief of 0.2-0.3mm by maybe 0.04mm. Probably not something you will notice. But the more relief you have, the more bowing force a given tension will exert (the less relief you have, more of the string force will go to compression instead).

It is closer to exponential, but does not follow any exact scale and changes from neck to neck. Some necks will not even notice a 10% increase in tension and change in no way, some will look like a banana with the same increase, mostly a function of stiffness along the grain of the particular bits of wood and and shape of the neck and type of truss rod. The increase in the bowing force is very slight between flat and any useful amount of relief, if you loosen a truss rod on a neck under tension and watch the relief you will generally see a point were the the relief begins to increase quickly with each 1/4 turn on the rod. With most necks this jump seems to happens beyond the range of useful relief.

Yeah those silly string companies, what do they know.

The string manufactures know nothing of the instrument one is installing strings on, all they know is tension for length/pitch of a given string. Did you have a point with this?

[DeathJag]

I have ALWAYS wondered about this! The DD .16 - .60 is insane, but that Beast strat has endured. Those fender necks must be strong - people are using JMs to make baritones, which I think are like .22 - .80?

[oid]

D to D with 16-60 is high tension indeed, well over 30 lbs on that high D, but it still is not much for a neck to handle in the end. A run of the mill mild steel truss rod can do nearly 800 pounds before it fails, so well within the safety margin. The only real risk is the increased stress beyond the truss rod, the heel and head, but neither of these will fail just because you have 200 pounds of tension on it. It is mostly compression force, and the wood is quite strong that way, the issues arise when the guitar takes a fall or the head whacks the bass player during on stage antics, you are now adding in the force of the impact to the force of the strings and it is not to hard to exceed the breaking limit.

Any playable set of strings will not hurt the guitar on its own, but the increased tension means you have a shorter distance to go before you reach that breaking point.

On the subject of D-D tuning with 16 to 60, you have very uneven tension across the neck, that high D is pulling nearly twice the tension of the low D, that will eventually cause the neck to twist, may take 30 years to get there, but that uneven of a tension is not good.

[DeathJag]

Haha I meant Dick Dale not a guitar fully tuned to D!

[oid]

Ahh, that's no better, but sometimes these things are unavoidable.

Internet lore says he tunes to standard as well, must have been a short scale player, or he went though high Es like mad, that would be over 40lbs on just that string, probably around 200 lbs for his full set.

[Horsefeather]

I once ran Dick Dale's set through D'Addario's string tension calculator and came up with a total tension of 193.21 lbs with quite a wide spread between the high and low values. The high E came out to 41.53 lbs. while the G was only 22.94 lbs. The low E was 29.35 lbs.

I then sought to build a set that equalized tension across all strings using 30 lbs. per string as the target and came up with this set:

13.5
18
22
34
46
62

Total tension is 178.78 lbs.

I acquired a set and have yet to install it on the intended guitar, as it's apart for a rebuild but I can't wait to see how they feel. I used to keep my guitar strung with the Dick Dale set and it was... intense. It sounds fantastic but renderings bending damn near impossible.

[niksureal]

im not expecting to whip anything up that would be dangerous. just posing the question and being curious.
daddario has the worst string balance of any string company as far as my research goes. without getting into more expensive, specifically balanced sets, it seems ghs are most balanced. still not perfect.
its arbitrary and mostly unimportant, i think, but after having done some research and playing sets that are really evenly balanced, it is so much nicer.
i know a few people that wouldnt be caught dead with anything but daddario, even knowing how unbalanced they are. i guess most people arent bothered enough to care.

[oid]

im not expecting to whip anything up that would be dangerous. just posing the question and being curious.
daddario has the worst string balance of any string company as far as my research goes. without getting into more expensive, specifically balanced sets, it seems ghs are most balanced. still not perfect.
its arbitrary and mostly unimportant, i think, but after having done some research and playing sets that are really evenly balanced, it is so much nicer.
i know a few people that wouldnt be caught dead with anything but daddario, even knowing how unbalanced they are. i guess most people arent bothered enough to care.

String balance is largely an issue of personal preference/playing style, as long as you are in the general ballpark. The tensile strength of the common mild steel truss rod is around 800 pounds and the the fender style bolt on neck with that large plate will generally take just as much, abit less for necks that replace the plate for individual ferrules for each screw, the Les Paul style set neck will probably take even more and the SG/Melody Maker style almost as much. It is fairly difficult to put together a dangerous set of strings, playing will be impossible before things start failing, assuming all is well with the guitar in the first place.

When string makers are putting together a set of strings they are looking to find the best trade off between a pile of factors including string tensions. A fat string has more drag on it, so despite it actually having a higher output than a skinny string of the same tension, it sounds quieter, the increased drag kills the high harmonics quickly which lowers perceived volume*. That skinny string will also have a longer sustain due to its decreased drag and will feel tighter to most fingers. The fat strings need more space to vibrate for a given tension, increasing tension means lower possible action but if you balance that and increase the tension on the skinny strings you decreases bending range on those strings many like to bend on. Selecting strings for a set is a rather complex task, it is no wonder so many develop their own personal sets.

*This is also why many often have difficulty with the low strings overdriving the amp before the high strings and general issues with muddy heavily driven basses with near infinite sustain and somewhat lifeless trebles, our ears are tricking us.