Fender Japan/Ishibashi Question

[andy_tchp]

Sounds like a myth, or just one person's interpretation of Fender Japan's very ambiguous neck stamps/markings.

The stuff on there about 'Q series' being higher quality/limited in numbers is frankly a load of bollocks. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with them, but I played at least 6 of them side by side before laying out my cash, and to be honest they were a bit of a mixed bag (unfortunately the BMM and Sonic Blue ones I tried (and wanted!) were basically dead sounding logs by comparison, so I ended up with a Jazzmaster in CAR instead, as it was the best sounding of the bunch...)

There's no 'EX' stamped on mine either, but was purchased through a bricks and mortar official Fender dealer.

As far as 'better' Fender Japan models go, the only ones I'm aware of are the 'VSP' designated things with nitro finishes, CTS pots and high price-tags, or the ones with 'EXTRAD' on the back of the headstock which are supposed to be 'dead-on' reissues of vintage guitars ('Extra detail' perhaps?)

It's certainly hard to say with any authority what Fender Japan has gotten up to over the years, but I don't believe for a second 'inferior' quality instruments were produced for export given the majority I've laid hands on have been top quality construction wise, with the only complaint being pickups (and usually only on the Jazzmasters/Jaguars, RI Mustangs and everything else have been pretty good IME.)

[frelonvert]

"There has been some questions about the MIJ EXTRAD guitars. The Extrad is a Japanese "Custom Edition" guitar, which is just under the Japanese Custom Shop models. They are dead on replicas of the original vintage Fenders, shot with 100% nitro and often use USA electronics. They made 52 Teles, some very nice Strats, some even with Lace Sensor pickups. The quality is better than Fender USA excluding the USA Custom Shop models.They were made in Japan too, so do not think they were made in USA and shipped to Japan. Just read the history (above) of Fender Japan and that is easy to understand!"
"You can tell if you have an EXTRAD a couple of ways. Often they wil have EXTRAD written on the back of the headstock or by the serial number. Some will only have EX on the part numbers located on the neck socket of the body or the heal of the neck. (See above) Many of the mid-1980s models will also have FENDER stamped on the neck plate."

it is from : http://xhefriguitars.com/page9.html
is it true or not ? I don't know...

[triviani]

Sounds like a myth, or just one person's interpretation of Fender Japan's very ambiguous neck stamps/markings.

The stuff on there about 'Q series' being higher quality/limited in numbers is frankly a load of bollocks. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with them, but I played at least 6 of them side by side before laying out my cash, and to be honest they were a bit of a mixed bag (unfortunately the BMM and Sonic Blue ones I tried (and wanted!) were basically dead sounding logs by comparison, so I ended up with a Jazzmaster in CAR instead, as it was the best sounding of the bunch...)

There's no 'EX' stamped on mine either, but was purchased through a bricks and mortar official Fender dealer.

As far as 'better' Fender Japan models go, the only ones I'm aware of are the 'VSP' designated things with nitro finishes, CTS pots and high price-tags, or the ones with 'EXTRAD' on the back of the headstock which are supposed to be 'dead-on' reissues of vintage guitars ('Extra detail' perhaps?)

It's certainly hard to say with any authority what Fender Japan has gotten up to over the years, but I don't believe for a second 'inferior' quality instruments were produced for export given the majority I've laid hands on have been top quality construction wise, with the only complaint being pickups (and usually only on the Jazzmasters/Jaguars, RI Mustangs and everything else have been pretty good IME.)

All this. Thank you.

Special, or "better" models are identified by some short of series or special runs, like the VSP, and the Extrad, but would be the first time I hear that on the JG66 there are differences in quality on purpose.

[spacecadet]

"There has been some questions about the MIJ EXTRAD guitars. The Extrad is a Japanese "Custom Edition" guitar, which is just under the Japanese Custom Shop models. They are dead on replicas of the original vintage Fenders, shot with 100% nitro and often use USA electronics.

Goddammit, now you've given me another thing that I have to add to my U-box stalking list...

[carausius]

It's the UK & European reissue models that I'm talking about, these CIJ / MIJ guitars have been available over here since 1985, I don't know what the situation is in the US or elsewhere but I was under the impression that Japan Fenders were not sold officially in the US until some years later. You might well get difference in specification in different regions of the world?

Similar models for the domestic Japan market, that are not available for official export in Europe often have US made pickup & parts. Check the Fender Japan catalogues. You can buy second hand guitars direct from Japanese dealers & some of them have colours & features that are not present in UK / European exports

I took the neck of my 1998 CIJ JG66 last night & the neck has "EX" stamped. As does the neck pocket. There are UK dealers who have sold " grey imports" / Japanese domestic models who claim the official UK & European exports are made to a different price point.

[Streetglide]

I realize this thread is old but I'll share what I know about Fender "EXTRAD guitars. First, I lived in Tokyo from 1989 until 2008. I built up a massive collection of vintage guitars that I won't bore you with, now mostly gone. But I did keep the 1989 Fender EXTRAD ST54-120. I bought the guitar from LAOX, a shop in Akihabara. I had put a deposit down on a guitar and when I arrived to pick it up they had sold it to another customer. Embarrassed, they said chotto matte (please wait), and sent out a staff member to the FJ headquarters in Kanda Shokai. He arrived back in a short time and there was my guitar. I asked them to install the Van Zandt pickups i had ordered for the guitar -- you could get your choice of pickups -- and they did it on the spot.

I was extremely lucky because it is the guitar they had photographed for all of their promotional material. The guitar in the (in)famous 1989 fold-out poster was in fact the one in my hands. I still have that guitar. It is a tremendous axe and I had played a 1957 Strat for 27 years in the honkytonks around northern California plus I've owned more than a dozen vintage Strats, 12 pre-55 Teles and Esquites and a pile of other stuff. I kept this one. I'll post a photo soon.

EXTRAD stands for "extra tradition," a Japanese-English phrase for extra care. I met FJ's wood buyer in 1990 and he said he travelled all over the south of the USA looking for the wood for that series -- swamp ash and hard rock maple. The finish and sunburst is perfect although the shading is more '57-ish than '54. The neck is slightly petite, playing more like a '60. It is a two-piece body with a center seam, something not often found on vintage Strats. The pickguard is a true three laminations (vintage white guards are in fact three lams if you look closely), the switch, and pots are USA, the tone cap is not.

I talked to old man Van Zandt just before he died, a kind and gentle man. The pickups are some of the very last he wound. They have a unique tone that I love, very honky. I ordered them with the same ohms as my '57 -- 5.6, 5.4 and 5.7 rhythm to lead.

I've owned four EXTRADs -- a '52 Tele that was okay, a '62 in seafoam green that weighed a ton and a '62 sunburst that was really decent except the dots were plastic instead of compressed paper. These things aren't cheap in Japan and rarely show up. When they do they are snapped up by Japanese collectors.The were made at the height of the so-called "bubble economy" and represent the pinnacle of Fujigen's craft.

I also have a 2006 Dyna-made Crafted-in-Japan '54ST-120 that is the best-made, most accurate maple-neck Strat made since 1958 but that's for another time.

[paisleytone]

" The quality is better than Fender USA excluding the USA Custom Shop models.

I've owned both and Japanese customs are better than US custom shop guitars. You can actually purchase early jv squier's that are higher quality than a lot of American custom shop models. If you buy a "'57 reissue" usa custom shop strat, it's nothing like a 1957 strat. It's got an American standard neck profile and nice, but generic, custom shop pickups. The same is true for all custom shop reissues. USA customs have also got some modern elements like a flat sawn neck, so if you play .13's, the neck will warp after a few years. My st54-120 Extrad has quarter sawn flame maple. Fender USA doesn't even offer that option. With Fender USA, you can get either figured maple (flame, birdseye, quilted) or you can get 1/4 sawn, but you can't have both.

The Extrads were built to be almost identical to the year they were modeled after. They aren't exact duplicates though. Fujigen made small improvements, like the 3 way switch on a st54; you can easily set it on the position between 3-5 and 1-3 and you don't have to wedge anything under the pickguard to get it to stay there. It will stay thereon its own. Another difference is the neck bolts have ridges running down the length of the screw in the valley between the threads that acts as a locking screw so that the neck bolts don't work their way loose. The worm-route in the pickup cavity is cleanly done rather than just gouged out, and the pickups in the guitar are whichever pickups you specified. The neck is a boatneck that feels like a D neck rather than a hard V. These aren't huge differences, and they actually improve on the original design, but they are differences.

Fender USA has adopted this idea in the last few years with their American vintage series,finally making reissues that actually are built to be like the year they are modeled after. However, they aren't custom shop guitars. They are just production models, but they've got a custom shop price tag (over 2k). I've played some in stores and, though they feel and sound like good guitars, the action is intentionally set way too high so that prospective buyers can't fret out when bending strings (which happens when you set low action on a 7.25 vintage radius). Because they aren't set up properly, you can't tell whether the frets are properly leveled and dressed or not. I personally wouldn't spend 2k on a new guitar that the manufacturer won't spend the money to set up properly.

The belief that USA Fender produces better guitars is due to marketing, but it isn't true. When Fujigen was producing Squiers that were better than the guitars of the CBS years, Fender America was having a hard time producing even a halfway decent guitar. When FMIC changed hands, they got none of the employees, factories, or tooling, so they were a bunch of novices trying to build guitars and having a hard time. Fujigen was producing strat copies that were higher quality than strats for years. Post CBS Fender has never tried to make guitars that could compete with pre-cbs strats in terms of quality. The guitar industry had changed and American guitars in general were medium quality, and that's what Fender strove for. Of course, if you haven't spent a good amount of time playing vintage strats, you would never know how much better a high quality strat sounds.

Today, if you want to buy a new guitar from Fender that is comparable to a CBS strat, you have to pay way too much for a masterbuilt strat and hope the builder can do it (which is a bit iffy because if they worked at Fender their whole career, then they've been taught to cut corners and build medium quality guitars).

[Nemesis]

" The quality is better than Fender USA excluding the USA Custom Shop models.

I've owned both and Japanese customs are better than US custom shop guitars. You can actually purchase early jv squier's that are higher quality than a lot of American custom shop models. If you buy a "'57 reissue" usa custom shop strat, it's nothing like a 1957 strat. It's got an American standard neck profile and nice, but generic, custom shop pickups. The same is true for all custom shop reissues. USA customs have also got some modern elements like a flat sawn neck, so if you play .13's, the neck will warp after a few years. My st54-120 Extrad has quarter sawn flame maple. Fender USA doesn't even offer that option. With Fender USA, you can get either figured maple (flame, birdseye, quilted) or you can get 1/4 sawn, but you can't have both.

The Extrads were built to be almost identical to the year they were modeled after. They aren't exact duplicates though. Fujigen made small improvements, like the 3 way switch on a st54; you can easily set it on the position between 3-5 and 1-3 and you don't have to wedge anything under the pickguard to get it to stay there. It will stay thereon its own. Another difference is the neck bolts have ridges running down the length of the screw in the valley between the threads that acts as a locking screw so that the neck bolts don't work their way loose. The worm-route in the pickup cavity is cleanly done rather than just gouged out, and the pickups in the guitar are whichever pickups you specified. The neck is a boatneck that feels like a D neck rather than a hard V. These aren't huge differences, and they actually improve on the original design, but they are differences.

Fender USA has adopted this idea in the last few years with their American vintage series,finally making reissues that actually are built to be like the year they are modeled after. However, they aren't custom shop guitars. They are just production models, but they've got a custom shop price tag (over 2k). I've played some in stores and, though they feel and sound like good guitars, the action is intentionally set way too high so that prospective buyers can't fret out when bending strings (which happens when you set low action on a 7.25 vintage radius). Because they aren't set up properly, you can't tell whether the frets are properly leveled and dressed or not. I personally wouldn't spend 2k on a new guitar that the manufacturer won't spend the money to set up properly.

The belief that USA Fender produces better guitars is due to marketing, but it isn't true. When Fujigen was producing Squiers that were better than the guitars of the CBS years, Fender America was having a hard time producing even a halfway decent guitar. When FMIC changed hands, they got none of the employees, factories, or tooling, so they were a bunch of novices trying to build guitars and having a hard time. Fujigen was producing strat copies that were higher quality than strats for years. Post CBS Fender has never tried to make guitars that could compete with pre-cbs strats in terms of quality. The guitar industry had changed and American guitars in general were medium quality, and that's what Fender strove for. Of course, if you haven't spent a good amount of time playing vintage strats, you would never know how much better a high quality strat sounds.

Today, if you want to buy a new guitar from Fender that is comparable to a CBS strat, you have to pay way too much for a masterbuilt strat and hope the builder can do it (which is a bit iffy because if they worked at Fender their whole career, then they've been taught to cut corners and build medium quality guitars).

Most of your post is your own opinion. Its not fact.
Given the level of research into instruments and the consistent level of build quality on the AVRI line and the custom shop stuff I have to massively disagree with you.

Fender used to be run as a production line back in the golden pre cbs days. Leo was notorious for doing everything as cheaply as he could. Cost drove Fenders production.
The rest is just marketing mojo and a hang over from the massive lull in quality from the 70s.

[paisleytone]

Most of your post is your own opinion. Its not fact.

Of course it's my opinion. The subject matter is subjective. We aren't discussing chemistry or physics here.

Given the level of research into instruments and the consistent level of build quality on the AVRI line and the custom shop stuff I have to massively disagree with you.

Feel free. The build quality is consistent because it's all done by machines. However, it's consistently mediocre.

Fender used to be run as a production line back in the golden pre cbs days. Leo was notorious for doing everything as cheaply as he could. Cost drove Fenders production.

Cost drives every companies manufacturing decisions. The difference was that quality in general was higher in the 50's-60's than it is today, so Fender had to meet a higher standard. Cost is the bottom line in manufacturing for modern Fender as well, the difference is that quality in general is a lot lower, so modern Fender makes sacrifices that Fender wouldn't have been able to. Modern CNC routers makes a huge difference in manufacturing guitars. In Leo Fender's day, wooden parts were cut and shaped by hand, now it's all done with routers, with luthiers only doing final shaping. More importantly, the CBS employees that bought Fender were from the marketing department, and that has always been the strong point of modern Fender. They build lower quality, higher priced instruments and make up for it by spending heavily in marketing aimed at covering up the lower quality of their instruments. They have one gimmick after another attempting to equate fmic with the Fender of Leo's day.

The rest is just marketing mojo and a hang over from the massive lull in quality from the 70s.

Here's something you've probably never considered. If 70's Fender products were so bad, why are 70's strats so collectible currently? It's because, during the CBS era when guitar players all thought Fender quality had gone down the tubes, they were comparing CBS strats with the strats that had been made before CBS. Now, people are comparing them to modern strats. Compared to a 62 strat, a 75 strat is garbage- compared to a modern strat, it isn't that bad. The high quality instruments that Fender released after CBS were instruments that were made in Japan by Fujigen. If you read Fender history, you'll see that they couldn't build a halfway decent guitar at Fender America because the employees from the marketing department that bought Fender didn't get any factories, employees or tooling in the deal, so they had to start all over and learn to build guitars again. Fender America produced medium quality instruments, but they got the reputation for building higher quality instruments because of effective marketing and contracting with real guitar builders in Japan to build guitars for them.

Also, the AVRI guitars that Fender built after CBS were never built to the specs of the year they were supposedly a reissue of. A 62 reissue has absolutely nothing in common with a 1962 strat. If you don't consider it to be a decline in quality when Fender just mixes modern production parts and then refers to the result as "reissues" rather than Fender actually building the reissues to the proper specs, than you're kidding yourself. I had a Cunetto '57 reissue relic guitar that sounded and played great, until the neck warped from .13 strings. Why did it warp? Because a real 1957 Fender strat neck is 1/4 sawn, which provides much more stability and allowed the neck to withstand .13's with no problems. Fender currently uses a flat sawn American Standard neck that they just call a '57 reissue, and it's not strong enough to withstand the tension of .13 strings (I have a paisley tele and an Extrad from Japan sitting here and both have 1/4 sawn necks). The American vintage series guitars aren't set up properly at the factory before sending them to the dealers. So, you can spend 2400 bucks for a strat and then have to spend more money to have it properly set up. And then you have to hope that the frets were leveled and dressed properly, which no one can be sure of because Fender never set it up well enough to check the fretwork. It's inexusable that Fender expects their customers to spend over 2 grand for a guitar and then be required to pay more for a set up just to check whether the guitar has been properly built. Another thing I've noticed is that Fender is currently not even bothering with bookmatching their two pieced bodies (which is most of their guitars). They'll sell sunburst or blonde guitars with totally mismatched grains. And, when they have a laminated top, they've started doing those in two pieces and not bothering to match the grain of those either. Not to mention the "fotoflame" nonsense where Fender just prints a flame maple design on a piece of wood rather than using flame maple.

You're overlooking obvious quality issues from Fender because you're a fan and you've been hoodwinked by marketing. I've been a strat guy for most of the time I've played guitar, and I have a bunch of Fender guitars and amps sitting right here next to me. I used to be a devotee to American Fender guitars- wouldn't have any foreign crap in my collection. However, after realizing how stupid that was of me, I'm not swayed by the constant flood of bullshit from marketing departments and younger guitar players that are star struck by celebrity and devoted to labels. The bottom line is that you can find off brand Japanese copies of strats, tele's, les pauls, sg's, etc from the 70's-early 90's that are every bit as good as the real deal, often times being far superior. And Fender custom shop guitars, while being pretty good guitars, are way overpriced. You can build a guitar that's superior in quality to a custom shop model using warmoth parts that's a lot cheaper then Fender. In the area of the country where I live (Washington), I can have a builder make me a guitar from scratch with all the features I want, from wood that I've hand selected, and for less than a Fender custom shop guitar.

Fender is mostly hype, and they get away with over-charging for low quality because of the legions of fans that won't exercise any critical thought or judgment because they like to think their guitar is magic- that they and Hendrix share a kindred spirit because of the music equipment they use,that they are great guitar players because they have a custom shop guitar, or some other view Fender's marketing department worked hard into manipulating guitar players to adopt.

[gutter rock]

Not wanting to make an argument about this, but it doesn't seem that warped necks are really that common on modern fender or even squier guitars. If fender necks couldn't stand .13 strings it seems that there would be endless discussions on gear forums about the issue. I know not a lot of people use .13's but a lot do use .12's. If fenders neck construction techniques were truly that inferior then surely every fender jazz bass would suffer from warping. They tend to have a pretty slim neck and bass string tension is no joke. Maybe I am in the dark or misinformed, but this is the first I have heard of this problem.

[Nemesis]

You are selling your opinion as fact. You are also making assumptions based on me questioning your first post.
I find it interesting that you have a negative take on CNC. CNC will always be more accurate than its human counter part. (See PRS, Godin, Fender, Gibson, Anderson etc)

but the thing I want you to clarify with fact (not your opinion), is regarding the quality. What explicitly was better in the 50s and 60s in terms of hardware/body/electronics that is so inferior today?

[paisleytone]

Not wanting to make an argument about this, but it doesn't seem that warped necks are really that common on modern fender or even squier guitars.

How would you know how often necks warp on fenders, or any other guitar, for that matter?

If fender necks couldn't stand .13 strings it seems that there would be endless discussions on gear forums about the issue.

Why? There aren't many people that play .13's. You can't walk into a guitar store and say "give me the .13's" and then walk out. You have to buy Dean Markley strings, throw away the wound g string, and then hope they sell banjos so that they'll carry a single unwound .17-.20 gauge string that can be used as a G.

"If fenders neck construction techniques were truly that inferior then surely every fender jazz bass would suffer from warping."

You're comparing apples and oranges. Aside from that- I had a custom shop guitar that warped because I used .13's. You're making assumptions based upon what you imagine you would have heard, what you guess would be evident in basses if it happens with guitars, and whatever other excuse you can invent to save yourself from the reality that you worship a manufacturer for selling you low quality, over-priced instruments. Also, that isn't just Fender doing that, flat sawn necks are the standard for modern guitars.

"You are selling your opinion as fact."


And you are lacking in reading comprehension. That's the only explanation for you answering my post in which I say "of course it's just my opinion" with the accusation that I'm "selling my opinion as fact". Let me ask you, what's the point of responding to you at all if you're just going to ignore what I say?

"I find it interesting that you have a negative take on CNC."

I find it interesting that you think I provided a negative opinion on CNC routers just because I mentioned that they are used currently. You really have to pay more attention to what you read before you respond.

"CNC will always be more accurate than its human counter part."

Jesus. . .Is there something wrong with you? Again, you seem to have no grasp of the post you are responding to. Why did you feel the need to point that out when I just told you in my prior post that build quality is more consistent because of machines?

"but the thing I want you to clarify with fact (not your opinion)"

And I want you to display an adult level of reading comprehension before I waste any time on that. As part of your study material to bring your reading skills up to snuff, maybe you could reread my previous post in which I mention specific practices Fender engages in that result in lower quality instruments. Or, better yet, cut the passive aggressive bullshit and just admit I've offended you by uttering unkind words against the corporaton that you idolize.

[gutter rock]

I don't think enjoying Fender guitars, when I have never experienced any major quality issues with them qualifies as worship or some blind idolizing. You are correct, no one really uses 13's so maybe the true verdict isn't out on Fender's neck construction technique. I will continue to use 12's on most my fenders, as I have done for over a decade with no fear. I do not know how many guitar necks warp these days, but if it was truly a rampant problem, musicians would be EXTREMELY vocal about it on the Internet.

[Nemesis]

And I want you to display an adult level of reading comprehension before I waste any time on that. As part of your study material to bring your reading skills up to snuff, maybe you could reread my previous post in which I mention specific practices Fender engages in that result in lower quality instruments. Or, better yet, cut the passive aggressive bullshit and just admit I've offended you by uttering unkind words against the corporaton that you idolize.

Perhaps you lack an ability to present you information in a presentable manner? This could lead to things being misconstured.

Further more you have registered on a new forum and made 3 border line troll posts. You have been very assumptious and when asked to clarify you have opted for a rather crass response regarding my reading ability. You have also took what I deem to be a negative attitude towards the other user regarding his questions around 13 gauge strings. He makes a very valid point. 13 gauge strings are available from Ernie ball, D'Addario, Rotosound and other vendors. I am sure you are not the only 13 gauge player out there, especially with all the SRV fans that play guitar but you and your one warped guitar means all Fender CS Necks are inferior because they are not quarter sawn.

Even John Suhr believes it makes no difference
"Qtr Sawn necks have more of a tendency to twist, when they move and all necks do, qtr sawn or not, (it is still the same wood) they will not move in the direction where the bow can be removed with the truss rod but more sideways, I have always found them to be trouble personally. We avoid qtr sawn and most builders I know feel the same. I have used it though and still guarantee it for life and would rather own it compared to flame or even birdseye."

We keep asking questions around your statements but you opt for insults and slander in response. I think you would be more at home over at The Gear Page.

[Larry Mal]

And I want you to display an adult level of reading comprehension before I waste any time on that. As part of your study material to bring your reading skills up to snuff, maybe you could reread my previous post in which I mention specific practices Fender engages in that result in lower quality instruments. Or, better yet, cut the passive aggressive bullshit and just admit I've offended you by uttering unkind words against the corporaton that you idolize.

We really don't do that here.