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I'm thinking about replacing the Antiquity II's in my CIJ JM with some noiseless JM pickups. I love the sound of the Antiquity II's in the middle position, particularly clean. That's just a glorious tone and that position sounds killer with them. But individually, I find the bridge just a little too bright and thin. The neck pickup...pretty good. Probably should've got Antiquity I's in hindsight.

I'd like to limit myself to "sounds like a Jazzmaster pickup". So no noiseless P90 style or WRHB's for example. Seems like the current market options are:

Fralin Noiseless
Brandonwound Noiseless
Novak JM-HC Stealth
Kinman Surfmaster
Kinman Fatmaster
Kinman Thickmaster
EMG

...anything else I should look at that's missing? Anyone with experience with noiseless JM pickups have some thoughts? I'm leaning towards a passive set (just to avoid batteries mostly), but not totally ruling out active pickups.

Just buy Kinmans. Save yourself the trouble and expense of going through the others and ending up at Kinman anyway

Impressions from the forums are that Kinmans are virtually uncompromised. They’re also the most expensive but if noiseless + perfect vintage sound (with different windings between surf, fat, and thick variants) is the goal, then get a set of Kinmans. My sights are set on getting them eventually.

Funkybot wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:49 am

I'm thinking about replacing the Antiquity II's in my CIJ JM with some noiseless JM pickups. I love the sound of the Antiquity II's in the middle position, particularly clean. That's just a glorious tone and that position sounds killer with them. But individually, I find the bridge just a little too bright and thin. The neck pickup...pretty good. Probably should've got Antiquity I's in hindsight.

I'd like to limit myself to "sounds like a Jazzmaster pickup". So no noiseless P90 style or WRHB's for example. Seems like the current market options are:

Fralin Noiseless
Brandonwound Noiseless
Novak JM-HC Stealth
Kinman Surfmaster
Kinman Fatmaster
Kinman Thickmaster
EMG

...anything else I should look at that's missing? Anyone with experience with noiseless JM pickups have some thoughts? I'm leaning towards a passive set (just to avoid batteries mostly), but not totally ruling out active pickups.

I own Fralin Noiseless, Brandonwound Noiseless, Novak J-HC Gold Foil, and Kinman Surfmaster. If I had to rate them in order of best traditional JM tones:

1. Kinman Surfmaster (may be a tad brighter than you want, though)
2. Fralin Noiseless
3. Novak JM-HC Gold Foil - not really traditional to me as the above two, but that's not a bad thing - definitely used for chimey, alternative stuff.
4. Brandonwound Noiseless are OK but if given the choice, I'd go with Kinman, Fralin, or Novak first.

Others who own the Kinman Fatmaster and Thickmaster sets may be able to tell you which might be more akin to late '50s Jazzmaster tones like the Antiquity Is - I'm curious as well as that would be the next set I'd likely go for. If they're not even close to that, then I'd just go for the SD Antiquity 1s.

An alternative to the SD Antiquity 1s would be Q Pickups' 1958 Jazzmaster (vintage correct A5 hand wound) that will get you in the '58 - '61 tonal range. They aren't hum-cancelling though. If he ever made hum-cancelling versions of his single coil offerings, I'd be one of the first in line to buy some. Q Pickups' pickups are pretty great and relatively more affordable. I've owned a few sets (couple Strat sets, Jag set, and the JM set). You can find Q Pickups on Reverb or via Google.

Surfysonic wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:16 pm

1. Kinman Surfmaster (may be a tad brighter than you want, though)

I found this, but it was immediately solved by using 500k pots instead of 1meg.

I have the fralin noiseless in mine and I quite like them.

JSett wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:38 am

Just buy Kinmans. Save yourself the trouble and expense of going through the others and ending up at Kinman anyway

Yep- that's the path I took, also. Save yourself some time and just get Kinman.

JSett wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:19 pm

Surfysonic wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:16 pm

1. Kinman Surfmaster (may be a tad brighter than you want, though)

I found this, but it was immediately solved by using 500k pots instead of 1meg.

Definitely to tame any shrillness. Just to clarify, if the OP is looking for that late '50s Jazzmaster tone, I'm not sure which Kinman pickups (if any) cover that that '58 - '61 sound like SD Antiquity I for Jazzmaster pickups or Q Pickups' '58 Jazzmaster pickups. The Surfmasters really don't have that flavor. I guess my primary confusion is not really understanding what makes the '58 - '61 Jazzmaster sound different from the '62 - onwards Jazzmaster sound?

I personally love the Surfmasters as is and didn't find them overly bright as had been warned on here (maybe my Squier 40th Anniversary Jazzmaster pots are low output?). In any case, I get great '62 - onwards tones from them for getting my surf on. As much as I like the '58 - '61 Jazzmaster pickups, they aren't my personal preference for surf stuff. However, they are great for a lot of other applications...I really hope I can find a hum-cancelling '58-'61 Jazzmaster pickup set some day.

I'm only speaking from experience with the Q Pickups '58 Jazzmaster pickups (Alnico 5), which sounded (for good or bad), quite similar to a set of Pure Vintage '59 Stratocaster pickups (Alnico 5) I had for a time. I'm making a huge assumption that the SD Antiquity I Jazzmaster pickups sound similar but I can't speak to personal experience. More of a generalized late '50s Fender tonal reference. The SD Antiquity I Jazzmaster pickups are Alnico 2 where the Antiquity IIs are Alnico 5.

Quoting from the Kinman website regarding the Surfmasters, Thickmasters, and Fatmasters:

The 6 rod magnets are Kinman's proprietary Alnico-K** magnets

So the only thing I'm sure at this point is that my brain hurts.

Surfysonic wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:33 pm

Quoting from the Kinman website regarding the Surfmasters, Thickmasters, and Fatmasters:

The 6 rod magnets are Kinman's proprietary Alnico-K** magnets

So the only thing I'm sure at this point is that my brain hurts.

Don't overthink it. Kinman uses a low-strength alnico grade to reduce string pull, and designs his pickups around that.

Alnico II/III/V have no inherent "tone." It's just that if you plug them into an identical coil (say, 8500 turns of AWG 42 plain enamel), the tone changes, because you changed one variable.

But when the magnet's properties are incorporated into the design process itself, anything is possible. Mellow and low output A5 pickups. Bright and high output A2 pickups.

There's absolutely no point to comparing Kinmans to "A5 so-and-so" pickups or "A2 whats-his-face pickups" because the entire pickup, from the ground up, is designed completely differently from a pre-CBS single coil.

But I'll add to the chorus here telling OP "just buy Kinmans."

Fatmasters with 1M pots and Surfmasters with 500k or 250k pots probably do extremely similar things, so I don't think there's even a major decision to be made there. Get Surfmasters if you're going for the most traditional tone possible and Fatmasters if you want something that's maybe a little more versatile while still being able to cop classic tones authentically enough.

From reading the description on the Kinman website, I think the Thickmasters may be closest to that darker, airy Fender Jazzmaster '58 - '61 pickups tone that I'm looking for.

ThickMaster is designed for a syrupy, soulful jazz sound with a thick, juicy bite.

.

Oh, hell, I'm sure I'll end up with the mid-rangey Fatmasters, too. Gotta get 'em all!

Surfysonic wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:43 pm

From reading the description on the Kinman website, I think the Thickmasters may be closest to that darker, airy Fender Jazzmaster '58 - '61 pickups tone that I'm looking for.

ThickMaster is designed for a syrupy, soulful jazz sound with a thick, juicy bite.

.

Oh, hell, I'm sure I'll end up with the mid-rangey Fatmasters, too. Gotta get 'em all!

No, the Thickmasters specifically target a "P90/PAF midrange meets Fender juiciness" tone, as per my discussions with them.

The Fatmasters are the darker 50s JM tone option, no question. Maybe with 500k pots instead of 1M.

"Don't overthink it. Kinman uses a low-strength alnico grade to reduce string pull, and designs his pickups around that."

Don't overthink it indeed. The "string pull" think is a complete myth. And that's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Embenny wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:50 pm

Surfysonic wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:43 pm

From reading the description on the Kinman website, I think the Thickmasters may be closest to that darker, airy Fender Jazzmaster '58 - '61 pickups tone that I'm looking for.

ThickMaster is designed for a syrupy, soulful jazz sound with a thick, juicy bite.

.

Oh, hell, I'm sure I'll end up with the mid-rangey Fatmasters, too. Gotta get 'em all!

No, the Thickmasters specifically target a "P90/PAF midrange meets Fender juiciness" tone, as per my discussions with them.

The Fatmasters are the darker 50s JM tone option, no question. Maybe with 500k pots instead of 1M.

Fair enough. Kinman's descriptions aren't very clear to the average customer. Kinman would better serve himself and his potential customers by providing the comparisons and differences of his offerings as well as comparing them to the Fender Jazzmaster tones he's going for.

Thanks for providing a definitive answer that I've been asking for.

Surfysonic wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:36 am

Fair enough. Kinman's descriptions aren't very clear to the average customer. Kinman would better serve himself and his potential customers by providing the comparisons and differences of his offerings as well as comparing them to the Fender Jazzmaster tones he's going for.

Thanks for providing a definitive answer that I've been asking for.

I agree, clarity and marketing (plus web design) are not Kinman's strength.

Talking to them directly, I've learned a lot. The Thickmasters still use direct Alnico polepieces, so the string response is more the snappy "Fender-like" one than the chunkier P90/PAF "clunk" as I like to call it, but the overall EQ is slanted toward a very warm and prominent midrange more like a P90.

It's notable than J Mascis bought 6 sets of Thickmasters for his JMs - he's recorded all his rhythm parts on P90-equipped Gibsons for basically forever, and that's the tone he likes. So that really solidifies the idea of the Thickmaster being a "Fendery P90" for me.

My Fatmasters sound almost like vintage JM pickups with a 1M tone pot wide open. I recently acquired a JM with Vineham Jazzmaster pickups based off a thick sounding 1960 model, and they're not far apart.

I think the Surfmaster is more of a mid 60s grey bobbin tone, and the Thickmaster is more of a late 50s black bobbin tone, though you can push them more toward each other with pot selection (my 1M Thickmasters can surf quite well, and Surfmasters with 250k pots probably sound similarly warm to mine).

OP here: I really wasn't expecting that much of a consensus! Sounds like Kinman's are the answer.

I'm pretty much ruling out the Thickmasters as I've got a P90 guitar, and they're just not my favorite. So a P90-inspired JM pickup is out.

I'm thinking Fatmaster neck and the Fatmaster Extra bridge. Though the Surfmaster sounds promising too based on how they describe the middle position sound. I agree that the Fatmaster description sounds more in line with what I've heard about the Antiquity I/50's JM pickups, whereas the Surfmaster sounds more 60's, but their description of the Surfmaster having piano like tones and a classic middle position sounds like what I'm after. Going to have to give the demo videos a good listen. Thanks for all the input!