Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
- BridgerHumbucker
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Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
I hope someone could possibly answer a question for me: Does the angle of the neck on a bolt on Squier ( a Jaguar in this case) influence the 'stiffness' / tension of the strings?
I have arthritis and after 40 plus years of playing, have had to switch to 24 inch scale Jaguars to ease the pressure on my hands. I have 3 different Jaguars that were set up by the same luthier ( frets leveled, action low as possible, neck nearly dead straight all to facilitate ease of play ability) 2 of the guitars are of the same run ( Squier HH from around 2011 with the all in one 3 point hard tail tilt bridge / 3 screws - 2 on the sides - bass and treble and one center rear)
The other is a Squier Modern Vintage that I had the bridge replaced with the same 3 point bridge as the other 2.
The 1st of the 2 Squier HH Jags plays like ice skating with butter on your feet, the second came back and played stiff/ harder for no apparent reason ( again set up the very same way). I just got the Squier Modern Vintage Jag back today ( again with the same 3 point all in one bridge installed) and it played as easy ( if not more so) as the 1st HH Jag.
After much going over and scrutinizing, the only thing I came up with was the 1st HH Jag and the Squier Modern Vintage had nearly the same neck tilt ( I dont have the tools to judge actual angle, but with my calipers, from the top of the fret board/end of neck to the top of the pick guard, they both set about 5.50 - 5.60 mm above the face of the guitar, the 2nd hard playing HH Jag on the other hand sets almost a full mm lower at 4.50 mm. So with way to much info, could anyone possibly tell me if this does indeed influence string tension, or could it be something else.
Any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
I have arthritis and after 40 plus years of playing, have had to switch to 24 inch scale Jaguars to ease the pressure on my hands. I have 3 different Jaguars that were set up by the same luthier ( frets leveled, action low as possible, neck nearly dead straight all to facilitate ease of play ability) 2 of the guitars are of the same run ( Squier HH from around 2011 with the all in one 3 point hard tail tilt bridge / 3 screws - 2 on the sides - bass and treble and one center rear)
The other is a Squier Modern Vintage that I had the bridge replaced with the same 3 point bridge as the other 2.
The 1st of the 2 Squier HH Jags plays like ice skating with butter on your feet, the second came back and played stiff/ harder for no apparent reason ( again set up the very same way). I just got the Squier Modern Vintage Jag back today ( again with the same 3 point all in one bridge installed) and it played as easy ( if not more so) as the 1st HH Jag.
After much going over and scrutinizing, the only thing I came up with was the 1st HH Jag and the Squier Modern Vintage had nearly the same neck tilt ( I dont have the tools to judge actual angle, but with my calipers, from the top of the fret board/end of neck to the top of the pick guard, they both set about 5.50 - 5.60 mm above the face of the guitar, the 2nd hard playing HH Jag on the other hand sets almost a full mm lower at 4.50 mm. So with way to much info, could anyone possibly tell me if this does indeed influence string tension, or could it be something else.
Any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
- oid
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
If the guitars all have the same strings and are tuned to the same pitch, neck angle has no affect on tension, if it did they would not be in tune.
Neck angle can affect action, but your luthier would have taken that into account during the setup and adjust angle to achieve the desired result.
Most likely this is one of three things.
The guitar moved since the setup
The luthier made a mistake, it happens.
Or this is an issue of the neck profile.
Neck profile can have a big effect on how we perceive playability, when you press a string down you pinching the neck between thumb and finger, your hands just might not like that thickness/profile and you need a little more or a little less meat in the neck or a different profile.
EDIT: Forgot to say, your measurements do not tell anything since they do not take into account neck thickness, neck pocket depth, pickguard thickness.
Neck angle can affect action, but your luthier would have taken that into account during the setup and adjust angle to achieve the desired result.
Most likely this is one of three things.
The guitar moved since the setup
The luthier made a mistake, it happens.
Or this is an issue of the neck profile.
Neck profile can have a big effect on how we perceive playability, when you press a string down you pinching the neck between thumb and finger, your hands just might not like that thickness/profile and you need a little more or a little less meat in the neck or a different profile.
EDIT: Forgot to say, your measurements do not tell anything since they do not take into account neck thickness, neck pocket depth, pickguard thickness.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.
- BridgerHumbucker
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
#1 thank you for all your comments, they are very much appreciated, that said, I know my measurements may seem crude, but, in theory they still represent the general shared height of the 2 guitars neck angle that play easy, I admit, I am grabbing at straws at this point and am open to any thoughts ( also the hard playing guitar has just as low action and as straight neck as the other 2 guitars)
As for neck profile, the 2 HH jags have nearly identical necks, the VM Jag actually has a wider and thicker neck and it still plays as easy as the other easy playing HH Jag
- oid
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
The measurements are not crude, they just tell us nothing about anything other then the height of the finger board above the pickguard.
I think this is a situations where bringing both of the HH jags to your luthier is the best path.
I suppose it could be different strings on one guitar, the difference between some string brands is fairly large on those wound strings for the same gauge. Do the unwound strings feel the same between the guitars?
If the action/setup is truly the same for both guitars, it pretty much reduces such an issue to strings, neck profile or the player. Physics leaves us with no other options.
I think this is a situations where bringing both of the HH jags to your luthier is the best path.
I suppose it could be different strings on one guitar, the difference between some string brands is fairly large on those wound strings for the same gauge. Do the unwound strings feel the same between the guitars?
If the action/setup is truly the same for both guitars, it pretty much reduces such an issue to strings, neck profile or the player. Physics leaves us with no other options.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.
- BridgerHumbucker
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
Same strings gauge, same brand and set up, again, the only perceivable difference is the harder playing Jags neck sets lower/ deeper/ farther in neck pocket than the other HH ( or the VM for that matter) it's truly maddingoid wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:14 amThe measurements are not crude, they just tell us nothing about anything other then the height of the finger board above the pickguard.
I think this is a situations where bringing both of the HH jags to your luthier is the best path.
I suppose it could be different strings on one guitar, the difference between some string brands is fairly large on those wound strings for the same gauge. Do the unwound strings feel the same between the guitars?
If the action/setup is truly the same for both guitars, it pretty much reduces such an issue to strings, neck profile or the player. Physics leaves us with no other options.
- oid
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
Then you need to take them to your luthier and demonstrate the issue, any decent luthier will stand by their work and do what they can to keep a client.
Things to make it easier for you and your luthier.
Figure out exactly where on the neck it seems harder, is it just a certain range of frets? Just by the nut? In the middle? etc.
Is it all strings or just some?
Bring BOTH HH Jags so they can play them and see the difference for themselves.
If you are using one of those luthiers that hides in the back of a guitar shop and has no contact with the customers, you would do well to find one that is not shielded by the store front. A luthier that you actually interact with is rather vital to getting good service, the luthier is who you should talk to, not some commission earning lacky.
Things to make it easier for you and your luthier.
Figure out exactly where on the neck it seems harder, is it just a certain range of frets? Just by the nut? In the middle? etc.
Is it all strings or just some?
Bring BOTH HH Jags so they can play them and see the difference for themselves.
If you are using one of those luthiers that hides in the back of a guitar shop and has no contact with the customers, you would do well to find one that is not shielded by the store front. A luthier that you actually interact with is rather vital to getting good service, the luthier is who you should talk to, not some commission earning lacky.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.
- BridgerHumbucker
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
Again thank you for your in depth comment.oid wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:47 amThen you need to take them to your luthier and demonstrate the issue, any decent luthier will stand by their work and do what they can to keep a client.
Things to make it easier for you and your luthier.
Figure out exactly where on the neck it seems harder, is it just a certain range of frets? Just by the nut? In the middle? etc.
Is it all strings or just some?
Bring BOTH HH Jags so they can play them and see the difference for themselves.
If you are using one of those luthiers that hides in the back of a guitar shop and has no contact with the customers, you would do well to find one that is not shielded by the store front. A luthier that you actually interact with is rather vital to getting good service, the luthier is who you should talk to, not some commission earning lacky.
The the guitar tension on the strings of the hard playing guitar is the same up and down the neck, the best way to put it is, it feels like the easy playing jags are tuned to E and the hard one is tuned to F.
Thankfully my luthier is a very 1 on 1 guy, sets right there when I check over a guitar and addresses any thing that comes up. Excellent work, does wonders, the guitar in question actually plays great. Problem is, when I got home and started doing the dreaded 'A/B' with the other guitars that I noticed a tighter tension on the strings. I have already talked with him about it and he seems a bewildered as I am. at this point, the only thing I thought of was maybe an increase in neck angle ( where this thread all started) I was just hoping some other concept might present itself.
- fuzzking
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
i just deleted my ramblings... this guy explains it far better:
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm
basically: with increased break angle (and thus increased 'speaking length of the string'), the string will be less compliant. in your case, a rough measurement to take (by eyeballing) would be the break angle over the bridge. compare how the stiffer feeling guitar's strings go over the bridge (i bet it's a bigger angle) vs. on the looser feeling guitars. the measurement you took (distance string > body) at any given point doesn't say anything... that's just distance string > body. but it's the break angles at bridge and nut. imagine a triangle: two sides stay the same, but one is increased in length = increase in tension. bad analogy maybe, but i tend to 'think' in terms of geometry, and it works a fucking treat. you could try decreasing neck angle for a bit, thus lowering needed bridge height, basically shortening the speaking length of the string = better compliance. first thing i do when a guitar feels to 'wobbly', i increase break angles by shimming and raising the bridge. feels much stiffer. but again, it's not only the neck pocket angle, it's the break angle over bridge and nut. been dealing with tendonitis myself for a while, and first thing to do was to take out the shims and decreasing break angles. anyway, some strings will have lower perceived tension, e.g. nickel will be much more forgiving than stainless. i like nickles with high break angles (nice for slide playing, but rather forgiving when bending), but atm. it's just low angles and them ole 'sloppy' nickles, cause otherwise i can't even do the basics. hope this doesn't sound too weird. don't think it's the luthier's faul per se, but if anyone comes up to me with his guitar and says it feels too stiff, i decrease angles. works a treat.
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm
basically: with increased break angle (and thus increased 'speaking length of the string'), the string will be less compliant. in your case, a rough measurement to take (by eyeballing) would be the break angle over the bridge. compare how the stiffer feeling guitar's strings go over the bridge (i bet it's a bigger angle) vs. on the looser feeling guitars. the measurement you took (distance string > body) at any given point doesn't say anything... that's just distance string > body. but it's the break angles at bridge and nut. imagine a triangle: two sides stay the same, but one is increased in length = increase in tension. bad analogy maybe, but i tend to 'think' in terms of geometry, and it works a fucking treat. you could try decreasing neck angle for a bit, thus lowering needed bridge height, basically shortening the speaking length of the string = better compliance. first thing i do when a guitar feels to 'wobbly', i increase break angles by shimming and raising the bridge. feels much stiffer. but again, it's not only the neck pocket angle, it's the break angle over bridge and nut. been dealing with tendonitis myself for a while, and first thing to do was to take out the shims and decreasing break angles. anyway, some strings will have lower perceived tension, e.g. nickel will be much more forgiving than stainless. i like nickles with high break angles (nice for slide playing, but rather forgiving when bending), but atm. it's just low angles and them ole 'sloppy' nickles, cause otherwise i can't even do the basics. hope this doesn't sound too weird. don't think it's the luthier's faul per se, but if anyone comes up to me with his guitar and says it feels too stiff, i decrease angles. works a treat.
Nobody exists on purpose.
- Larsongs
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
What Guage Strings are you using? Lighter Guage may help..
- oid
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
The changes in compliance and speaking length of a string from changes in neck angle are very very small. the change in speaking length is a fraction of a fraction of a mm. If people could feel such a difference they would feel the difference between every pack a strings, the inconsistencies and tolerances allowed in the manufacturing process leave them having a larger effect than such a small change in break angle/neck angle would.
The article does bring up a possible cause which I missed, friction, the strings binding in the nut or at the bridge could make the string feel stiffer. It would be odd that all 6 strings are binding the same amount. Is it a plastic nut?
The article does bring up a possible cause which I missed, friction, the strings binding in the nut or at the bridge could make the string feel stiffer. It would be odd that all 6 strings are binding the same amount. Is it a plastic nut?
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.
- sunburster
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
More break angle (with an accompanying elevated bridge) definitely makes the guitar strings feel stiffer. I tried that with my AVRI62 Jag and didn't like it so I took out the shim, lowered the bridge back down, and the looser feel came back.
- BridgerHumbucker
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
Thank you to everyone that posted, heres a few points to your posts
1. I may be playing the lightest gauge string in the world 36-28-20-13-10 and 7 AND tuned 1/2 step down ( Eb)
and yes they intonate, luckily i have a really light touch and can stay in tune. All guitars are the same gauge and string type ( D'Addario)
and all guitars 24 inch scale.
2. fret size in about medium jumbo ( that's what fender describes them, they are not too fat or wide, with C-profile maple neck with 9.5"-radius rosewood fingerboard ( actually the radius' on all of them have been flattened more closer to a 12 radius in the middle after my luthier leveled the frets on them all, again out of 4 guitars, only the one plays hard)
3. the bridge on the hard playing jag is almost level now with fret board ( the other 2 with the same bridge is tilted back) it in theory has less of a break than the other 2 easy playing guitars ( and yes originally it started at the same break angle as the other 2 easy playing guitars) so for some reason it seems counter to what a few of you have mentioned ( including a shallower/ deeper set neck playing easier)
4. and I am seriously thinking about just going ahead and shimming the neck on the hard playing one, cause, nobody wants their hands to catch on fire after 10 minutes of playing...
Any other comments, thoughts ? please help me figure out this rubics cube missing a tile....
1. I may be playing the lightest gauge string in the world 36-28-20-13-10 and 7 AND tuned 1/2 step down ( Eb)
and yes they intonate, luckily i have a really light touch and can stay in tune. All guitars are the same gauge and string type ( D'Addario)
and all guitars 24 inch scale.
2. fret size in about medium jumbo ( that's what fender describes them, they are not too fat or wide, with C-profile maple neck with 9.5"-radius rosewood fingerboard ( actually the radius' on all of them have been flattened more closer to a 12 radius in the middle after my luthier leveled the frets on them all, again out of 4 guitars, only the one plays hard)
3. the bridge on the hard playing jag is almost level now with fret board ( the other 2 with the same bridge is tilted back) it in theory has less of a break than the other 2 easy playing guitars ( and yes originally it started at the same break angle as the other 2 easy playing guitars) so for some reason it seems counter to what a few of you have mentioned ( including a shallower/ deeper set neck playing easier)
4. and I am seriously thinking about just going ahead and shimming the neck on the hard playing one, cause, nobody wants their hands to catch on fire after 10 minutes of playing...
Any other comments, thoughts ? please help me figure out this rubics cube missing a tile....
- fuzzking
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
shimming will not help. of course you can try and undo. experimentation is not a bad thing.
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- oid
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
You can trying shimming the neck, that will make the strings harder to fret (imperceptibly so) but you may get some of that dumb luck and have an easier playing guitar, you just will not know what the actual cause is!
I suppose there is increased friction at the saddles with the bridge flat, the nut could be pinching the strings, the strings could be catching on the back side of the nut. the bearing surface of the saddles could be rough further increasing friction. These are all fairly small increases in friction unless they are very bad, I assume your luthier would have either done something about them or mentioned them if they were that bad.
This is a tough one, I still say taking both HH Jags to your luthier is the way to go, being able to compare the two would be very useful.
I suppose there is increased friction at the saddles with the bridge flat, the nut could be pinching the strings, the strings could be catching on the back side of the nut. the bearing surface of the saddles could be rough further increasing friction. These are all fairly small increases in friction unless they are very bad, I assume your luthier would have either done something about them or mentioned them if they were that bad.
This is a tough one, I still say taking both HH Jags to your luthier is the way to go, being able to compare the two would be very useful.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.
- oid
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Re: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
I think your bridge may actually have less friction when flat, I am not 100% certain what type you have and the internet not really working here tonight so I can not check, I am stuck using only simple sites which use low bandwidth it seems.. I can think of two types of bridges that could be described as you say, neither were very common back when I was doing this work, or at least not common with the people I worked for.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.