Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
- Johnny Alien
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
I just don't understand how supporting American guitar companies means we don't believe that other countries can make good guitars. I also don't understand how wanting to support US companies makes us Pro-Trump capitalists. I agree with everyone else...it's just a really stupid thing to say.
- Larry Mal
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
The point is that you fight for every good job, and you support your fellow workers at least as much as possible. Like I say, guitar manufacturing, and other manufacturing, shows its importance by the fact that every nation competes to be able to do it. You think it's an accident that Fenders are now made in Indonesia? Indonesia worked hard to be able to attract that kind of job, it's not an accident that those factories are there.onebigholiday wrote:
Unfortunately, the internet is full of them and to each his own, bruh. I stand by it. It's a tired argument. Guitar manufacturing will not make America great again. It's certainly cool and there are some great things happening out there. Quality is quality, no matter where it comes from.
I'm no economist,
I enjoy forum arguing. Everybody wins!
Manufacturing jobs are important, you don't want to live in a nation that isn't a powerful manufacturing nation, which is why every nation on every continent works hard to increase their capacity to produce, because they are good jobs, and because it allows them to attract money from other places rather than to send their money out on goods that they need.
Again, manufacturing built the middle class here, and in Europe, and in Japan, Korea, and is starting to build strong middle classes in China and much of South America.
Now think of a nation that doesn't produce any goods that you purchase. Afghanistan, Haiti, Burma, these places spring to mind. But if any of them had the chance to get a Fender guitar factory they'd jump at it, as of course they should.
Jobs are important, and every little good one is something that your government should be fighting to get for you otherwise what else is it for.
You should have just left off with "I'm not an economist." And since you brought politics into it, if you represent liberal values, then your blase dismissal of other people's jobs probably tells me a lot about why Trump is doing as good as he is right now.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
- mediocreplayer
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
I have been negative regarding the Rivolta, but I do not share people's lack on enthusiasm about Eastwood. I have owned 3 Eastwood Tuxedos (every time I sell one I think to myself "why did I do this? It was such a cool guitar". They have all been really good instruments and I would recommend them without hesitation.
I also agree with those who say the manufacturing argument is tired (I am an economist but I don't think that really matters). Manufacturing jobs are not coming back. Yes, manufacturing built the middle class in the middle of the previous century. It's a new century now. If manufacturing jobs are not globalized they are being automated at a very fast rate (manufacturing jobs are declining in China for that reason). Outside of a few artisan makers, workers would be better served acquiring other skills (e.g. skilled lab-technicians, etc.)
I also agree with those who say the manufacturing argument is tired (I am an economist but I don't think that really matters). Manufacturing jobs are not coming back. Yes, manufacturing built the middle class in the middle of the previous century. It's a new century now. If manufacturing jobs are not globalized they are being automated at a very fast rate (manufacturing jobs are declining in China for that reason). Outside of a few artisan makers, workers would be better served acquiring other skills (e.g. skilled lab-technicians, etc.)
- Despot
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
I actually like the design, but I think the name is rather poor.
In terms of manufacturing jobs I have to agree with the post above that these are largely gone in the western world - especially for things that are of lower cost like guitars (as opposed to say specialised/higher cost industry like cars, aircraft etc).
And to a degree we're to blame - by 'we' I mean those of us who always want top spec dirt cheap. Why else are there factories in Asia producing guitars rather than factories in Europe or the US? Because the price point that can be sustained is lower than what can be supported making instruments in countries with a higher cost base. If the expected wage in the US or Ireland is x, and it's a fraction of X in Vietnam, China or wherever ... that allows the instrument to be priced at a lower point (as well as creating a bigger profit margin - but that's a whole other issue).
I've seen this in Ireland with manufacturing jobs leaving to go to Eastern Europe, and I'm now beginning to see the flow of higher paid/white collar jobs going the same way - if what you do can be done as well, or even marginally less well, by someone somewhere cheaper, your job could well have a sell by date.
In terms of manufacturing jobs I have to agree with the post above that these are largely gone in the western world - especially for things that are of lower cost like guitars (as opposed to say specialised/higher cost industry like cars, aircraft etc).
And to a degree we're to blame - by 'we' I mean those of us who always want top spec dirt cheap. Why else are there factories in Asia producing guitars rather than factories in Europe or the US? Because the price point that can be sustained is lower than what can be supported making instruments in countries with a higher cost base. If the expected wage in the US or Ireland is x, and it's a fraction of X in Vietnam, China or wherever ... that allows the instrument to be priced at a lower point (as well as creating a bigger profit margin - but that's a whole other issue).
I've seen this in Ireland with manufacturing jobs leaving to go to Eastern Europe, and I'm now beginning to see the flow of higher paid/white collar jobs going the same way - if what you do can be done as well, or even marginally less well, by someone somewhere cheaper, your job could well have a sell by date.
- Larry Mal
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
Well, I was pointing out the importance of manufacturing jobs to nations, and that being why they compete for them as they do. It's funny because when you see people say that they are "going away", well, they aren't gone, are they? They just aren't where they had been previously. People are still making things and always will.
Now, I don't predict that just because you buy this guitar instead of that guitar then America will magically turn back into 1963 with a chicken in every pot. But clearly there is going to be some manufacturing done in the United States because we can't all be "skilled lab assistants". And regarding exactly what will be made here, then that's up to you and me. At the moment, American made guitars still have an imprimatur that allows for manufacturing of those to be made here and sold at higher prices and this leads to jobs in the States. We've lost a lot of manufacturing jobs here, but haven't lost that one, and I personally won't contribute to the further dissolution of that industry and will try and keep my money employing Americans as much as possible (which I know is not very possible) or when practical.
You may say that this is "tired" but again, it's easy to be dismissive of someone else's job, I suppose. There are any number of American guitar makers even on this forum that would like your business, are here and waiting to talk to you, and who work very hard for your money. Those jobs are here, and will continue to be here, that just depends on you at this point.
Regardless, I'd feel a lot better about the thought of us all being skilled lab assistants if our government had at all worked to reposition American workers for the new economy, instead of just letting them wither and drown, but I suppose that's another tired argument that I got from Donald Trump and the best I can do is buy cheap Indonesian knockoffs of American designs and maybe let Doug Kauer cut in front of me at the unemployment line.
Now, I don't predict that just because you buy this guitar instead of that guitar then America will magically turn back into 1963 with a chicken in every pot. But clearly there is going to be some manufacturing done in the United States because we can't all be "skilled lab assistants". And regarding exactly what will be made here, then that's up to you and me. At the moment, American made guitars still have an imprimatur that allows for manufacturing of those to be made here and sold at higher prices and this leads to jobs in the States. We've lost a lot of manufacturing jobs here, but haven't lost that one, and I personally won't contribute to the further dissolution of that industry and will try and keep my money employing Americans as much as possible (which I know is not very possible) or when practical.
You may say that this is "tired" but again, it's easy to be dismissive of someone else's job, I suppose. There are any number of American guitar makers even on this forum that would like your business, are here and waiting to talk to you, and who work very hard for your money. Those jobs are here, and will continue to be here, that just depends on you at this point.
Regardless, I'd feel a lot better about the thought of us all being skilled lab assistants if our government had at all worked to reposition American workers for the new economy, instead of just letting them wither and drown, but I suppose that's another tired argument that I got from Donald Trump and the best I can do is buy cheap Indonesian knockoffs of American designs and maybe let Doug Kauer cut in front of me at the unemployment line.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
- Despot
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
To be clear Larry - I'm not having a go at any US guitar makers. On the contrary - they're now in a relatively small sub-group of guitar makers world wide (let's say the top/most desirable end of the scale).
I've nothing but respect for anyone setting up on their own to make guitars (I've owned a Bilt that was ordered over and above other options, because I wanted one more than anything else at that time). Similarly I have respect for both Fender and Gibson (as well as the other larger guitar makers in the US - Rickenbacker/Gretsch etc). But I believe they operate in a different realm to other new/non-established makers.
If you think about it they have nostalgia to throw back on. If I opened Despot Guitars in Ireland, I'd never be able to build scale to match what Fender do - the best I could do would be to build a solid rep for what I did and probably make an okay living at it if lucky. Fender/Gibson et al will always be able to rely on those purchasers who want a US made guitar of their chosen manufacturer - other countries don't have that nostalgia factor advantage ... certainly not countries that never had a manufacturer of instruments back in the Baby Boomer years.
On that basis guitar making can only ever be a small manufacturing concern here in Ireland - even someone like Lowden, who are a big-small operation, are minnows on the grand scale of Martin, or Taylor or Gibson. That size of an operation is never going to move the dial on exports for Ireland.
Anyway - sorry to de-rail the thread. We keep coming onto the topic of guitar making in the US/western world versus guitar making in Asian countries. I don't begrudge an Asian guitar factory worker the right to raise his standard of living, but I can similarly feel bad for an American/British/French/Irish worker (or whoever) losing their job to a lower cost country.
Sense suggests that like nature abhors a vaccum and draws in something to fill the gap, the current 'low cost' environments will become continually less so, leading to countries that don't currently manufacture instruments becoming more viable/desirable - and the cycle will start again with a factory in Asia closing as the job moves to Afghanistan or wherever. Eventually you'd hope there would be some sort of equalisation - but that's a long way off.
I've nothing but respect for anyone setting up on their own to make guitars (I've owned a Bilt that was ordered over and above other options, because I wanted one more than anything else at that time). Similarly I have respect for both Fender and Gibson (as well as the other larger guitar makers in the US - Rickenbacker/Gretsch etc). But I believe they operate in a different realm to other new/non-established makers.
If you think about it they have nostalgia to throw back on. If I opened Despot Guitars in Ireland, I'd never be able to build scale to match what Fender do - the best I could do would be to build a solid rep for what I did and probably make an okay living at it if lucky. Fender/Gibson et al will always be able to rely on those purchasers who want a US made guitar of their chosen manufacturer - other countries don't have that nostalgia factor advantage ... certainly not countries that never had a manufacturer of instruments back in the Baby Boomer years.
On that basis guitar making can only ever be a small manufacturing concern here in Ireland - even someone like Lowden, who are a big-small operation, are minnows on the grand scale of Martin, or Taylor or Gibson. That size of an operation is never going to move the dial on exports for Ireland.
Anyway - sorry to de-rail the thread. We keep coming onto the topic of guitar making in the US/western world versus guitar making in Asian countries. I don't begrudge an Asian guitar factory worker the right to raise his standard of living, but I can similarly feel bad for an American/British/French/Irish worker (or whoever) losing their job to a lower cost country.
Sense suggests that like nature abhors a vaccum and draws in something to fill the gap, the current 'low cost' environments will become continually less so, leading to countries that don't currently manufacture instruments becoming more viable/desirable - and the cycle will start again with a factory in Asia closing as the job moves to Afghanistan or wherever. Eventually you'd hope there would be some sort of equalisation - but that's a long way off.
- nucleardonut
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
There are Chinese-made Eastwoods (typically the ones priced $600 and below) and there are Korean-made Eastwoods ($800 and up). The Korean ones are great, just as good as other Korean-made guitars being made these days (and I'd be willing to bet they're being made in the same factory). Trouble is people play a couple cheapo Chinese Eastwoods and think "They're all crap!" Probably an argument for guitar companies using different brands for their various price points. This aren't branded "Fano" for that very reason, I'd guess.mediocreplayer wrote:I have been negative regarding the Rivolta, but I do not share people's lack on enthusiasm about Eastwood. I have owned 3 Eastwood Tuxedos (every time I sell one I think to myself "why did I do this? It was such a cool guitar". They have all been really good instruments and I would recommend them without hesitation.
- Larry Mal
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
I think that'll happen, you see it now where Japanese made guitars are not particularly less expensive than American made ones, nor should they be, and it's probably not much cheaper to employ a Japanese factory guitar maker than it is an American (if it is at all, which I kind of doubt).Despot wrote:
Sense suggests that like nature abhors a vaccum and draws in something to fill the gap, the current 'low cost' environments will become continually less so, leading to countries that don't currently manufacture instruments becoming more viable/desirable - and the cycle will start again with a factory in Asia closing as the job moves to Afghanistan or wherever. Eventually you'd hope there would be some sort of equalisation - but that's a long way off.
Probably as workers become middle class and their children become better educated in various nations there will be a worldwide overall lifting of income that should level out to where most nations can field a strongly educated workforce with a strong manufacturing base and the pockets of people that have to work for crumbs will be less and less. I guess that's the hope, anyway. But in the short term, no, large scale manufacturing jobs aren't coming back to the United States no matter what any politician says.
But like I say, for some reason, there are large scale guitar manufacturers here. You can still buy upscale (and in some cases entry level) American made guitars. To write off a whole strong industry as "tired" and refuse to support it because of some politician is pretty stupid. Clearly the world economy is what it is, and your apple comes from China and that's that (and I mean literal apples, China producing the most apples in terms of tonnage worldwide).
Guitar makers, though, still exist here and are strong here, because for whatever reason "made in America" counts for guitars, being so closely associated with American culture in ways that a DVD player can't be. So slagging them off as irrelevant kind of irks me, since they are still working hard for your money and still employing your fellow citizens, whose income is the tax base that keeps your road paved. You throw that away at your own peril.
Again, I understand this counts for nothing to anyone who is not American, but I just can't think what kind of mean, short-sightedness leads Americans to not support their own industries even after all we've lost, and how hurting a lot of our people are who have lost manufacturing jobs. Say what you will, but even a blind squirrel gets a nut every now and then, and Donald Trump is not wrong about that.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
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Last edited by niemand on Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- onebigholiday
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
Your counterpoints are very well thought out. I enjoy reading them and agree with most of them. I'll concede to the fact that I was just stirring the pot. America is already great, and will continue to be great. I do understand the value of buying American.Larry Mal wrote:Well, I was pointing out the importance of manufacturing jobs to nations, and that being why they compete for them as they do. It's funny because when you see people say that they are "going away", well, they aren't gone, are they? They just aren't where they had been previously. People are still making things and always will.
Now, I don't predict that just because you buy this guitar instead of that guitar then America will magically turn back into 1963 with a chicken in every pot. But clearly there is going to be some manufacturing done in the United States because we can't all be "skilled lab assistants". And regarding exactly what will be made here, then that's up to you and me. At the moment, American made guitars still have an imprimatur that allows for manufacturing of those to be made here and sold at higher prices and this leads to jobs in the States. We've lost a lot of manufacturing jobs here, but haven't lost that one, and I personally won't contribute to the further dissolution of that industry and will try and keep my money employing Americans as much as possible (which I know is not very possible) or when practical.
You may say that this is "tired" but again, it's easy to be dismissive of someone else's job, I suppose. There are any number of American guitar makers even on this forum that would like your business, are here and waiting to talk to you, and who work very hard for your money. Those jobs are here, and will continue to be here, that just depends on you at this point.
Regardless, I'd feel a lot better about the thought of us all being skilled lab assistants if our government had at all worked to reposition American workers for the new economy, instead of just letting them wither and drown, but I suppose that's another tired argument that I got from Donald Trump and the best I can do is buy cheap Indonesian knockoffs of American designs and maybe let Doug Kauer cut in front of me at the unemployment line.
It just seems like the majority of the folks that post on gear-related forums think that foreign-born gear is inferior to domestic gear.... Maybe it is, maybe it's not. You'd probably have to go on a case by case basis. I like the Rivolta and the idea that it's selling for $1200, when a comparable Fano RB6 sells for 2-3 times that.
I love what the builders that are active on this forum are doing, but man... Their guitars are pretty much untatainable to the working class of America. And I know they've explained "why" more than once on this forum. I get it, but as a part-time musician, I just can't justify the cost. If cost wasn't a thing, I'd have two Banshees and a Mike McCready LP. But it is what it is. And the money that I'd love to use towards those, instead goes to daycare and the cable company and the mortgage and so on and so forth. Being middle class in America is similar to being poor, but with financing. So instead, I think about used gear and Asian sourced gear.
Passion and intelligence are second to none at OSG.
- mediocreplayer
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
They actually are kind of gone, and people make less and less things because more and more is being made by machines. One of the most common jobs for low-skilled workers is in meatpacking factories, but now we have robot butchers. This trend will continue going up because automation and machine intelligence are increasing. It is easily getting to the point where to work in manufacturing will require a very high level of education and the entry cost will just be prohibitive to most folks.Larry Mal wrote:It's funny because when you see people say that they are "going away", well, they aren't gone, are they? They just aren't where they had been previously. People are still making things and always will.
I do not know if you are directing this at me but I am definitely not dismissive of anyone's job. I am also one of the people who buy from small-guy midwest operations (the aforementioned Nelson), but as someone else said, these will be few and far between. A guitar that costs thousands of dollars is a luxury good and not a lot of small-time operations can survive just by making luxury goods.Larry Mal wrote: You may say that this is "tired" but again, it's easy to be dismissive of someone else's job, I suppose. There are any number of American guitar makers even on this forum that would like your business, are here and waiting to talk to you, and who work very hard for your money. Those jobs are here, and will continue to be here, that just depends on you at this point.
This is where you have it completely right. The skills gap is incredibly large. People do not know what skills to acquire and if they do they do not know how to go about it or cannot afford it. My preferred solution is basic income. It's quite radical but I think it has the potential to rectify this situation.Larry Mal wrote:Regardless, I'd feel a lot better about the thought of us all being skilled lab assistants if our government had at all worked to reposition American workers for the new economy, instead of just letting them wither and drown, but I suppose that's another tired argument that I got from Donald Trump and the best I can do is buy cheap Indonesian knockoffs of American designs and maybe let Doug Kauer cut in front of me at the unemployment line.
- Larsongs
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
Going back to the earlier Iso Car comment/rant. They did make some cool Cars. Most with Chevy, Ford & BMW Engines. One even looks like a 63 Corvette Sting Ray. They made some pretty ugly ones too. They were no Ferrari.
I remember when the Yeakel Bros Car Dealers gave away a new Isetta with a new purchase of a Chrysler. They weren't so hot in the USA!
Every Century Technology advances are dramatic. Paradigm Shifts. The Jobs Markets change with the times. Is it really the Gov'ts job/responsibility to get you up to speed in the fast changing Job Market ? I don't think so. It's up to the individual. If you aren't moving forward, you're moving back ward.
I sent an email to Eastwood asking where these Guitars are going to be built. I'll let you all know.
The Bigs, Fender, Gibson & Martin reach all price points to attract as many people as possible to playing Guitars. As your income allows you can elevate from an Indonesian VM all the way up to a USA Custom Shop. That's smart business. Many foreign Companies manufacture in the USA too. Like Toyota, Lexus, Nissan etc. Those jobs count too. It's a world thing & has been for 30 years or more.
I still dig this Guitar & think it offers will probably offer a great opportunity for those who can't pony up $2, $3, $4,000.00 & more for a Top of the Line Fano Guitar.
Rock n Roll
I remember when the Yeakel Bros Car Dealers gave away a new Isetta with a new purchase of a Chrysler. They weren't so hot in the USA!
Every Century Technology advances are dramatic. Paradigm Shifts. The Jobs Markets change with the times. Is it really the Gov'ts job/responsibility to get you up to speed in the fast changing Job Market ? I don't think so. It's up to the individual. If you aren't moving forward, you're moving back ward.
I sent an email to Eastwood asking where these Guitars are going to be built. I'll let you all know.
The Bigs, Fender, Gibson & Martin reach all price points to attract as many people as possible to playing Guitars. As your income allows you can elevate from an Indonesian VM all the way up to a USA Custom Shop. That's smart business. Many foreign Companies manufacture in the USA too. Like Toyota, Lexus, Nissan etc. Those jobs count too. It's a world thing & has been for 30 years or more.
I still dig this Guitar & think it offers will probably offer a great opportunity for those who can't pony up $2, $3, $4,000.00 & more for a Top of the Line Fano Guitar.
Rock n Roll
- Johnny Alien
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
I have played some higher priced Eastwoods. I believe they were made in Korea and what you say seems to back that up. I wasn't impressed. It's their quality control that I feel is lacking. Reverend and Duesenberg are made in the same factory and are very well made instruments. I would really doubt that Eastwood makes their guitars in that factory but I suppose it's possible. What makes the Reverend a great instrument in my mind is that each one is gone over completely by their US setup guy. If Eastwood does that their guy sucks. Maybe some are great I just haven't played one. Now maybe in this deal someone from Fano will go over them. That would make a difference to me.nucleardonut wrote:There are Chinese-made Eastwoods (typically the ones priced $600 and below) and there are Korean-made Eastwoods ($800 and up). The Korean ones are great, just as good as other Korean-made guitars being made these days (and I'd be willing to bet they're being made in the same factory). Trouble is people play a couple cheapo Chinese Eastwoods and think "They're all crap!" Probably an argument for guitar companies using different brands for their various price points. This aren't branded "Fano" for that very reason, I'd guess.
- shadowplay
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Re: Dennis Fano & Eastwood offer new Offset Guitar
They were more like a Maserati, who had at this time abandoned competition and were concentrating on making true GT's. Sure Iso didn't have exotic engines but they covered the same ground as the Trident and their chassis design was actually arguably superior to Ferrari at the time, having been designed by Giotto Bizzarrini who'd fallen out with Enzo (who could start a fight in an empty room) after designing the the legendary 250 GTO. I've been fortunate enough to drive many 60's top line GT's by Maserati and Ferrari and even own a few (Tridents, not horses) and I've always considered the Grifo in particular a superbly interactive and relatively sophisticated drive and the Rivolta not far behind it and IMO criminally underpriced. Iso's were GT's not sports cars, they were designed for long distance swift touring, with really good looking and comfortable cabins and while Ferrari made some GT's they were always comparatively hard work. I regret not buying one when they were reasonable but Im an engine enthusiast and they don't have the heart of my beloved Maserati or a Ferrari (which is moot since the 60's cars are mostly 7 figures). The writer Winston Goodfellow has written a couple of excellent books on Iso and Bizzarrini but I've loved these cars since I got a French Racing Blue Matchbox Grifo like this one probably in the very early 70's. Ever since I was a tiny wee boy I've been drawn to front engined exotics and etceterini.Larsongs wrote:Going back to the earlier Iso Car comment/rant. They did make some cool Cars. Most with Chevy, Ford & BMW Engines. One even looks like a 63 Corvette Sting Ray. They made some pretty ugly ones too. They were no Ferrari.
I'm still a fan of many of the Euro chassis/US iron GTs of the 60's. Facel's, Monterverdi's, Gordon Keeble's, Bitter's and De Tomaso's are all desirable and often truly beautiful, as are the relatively more everyday Jensen's and Bristols.
Ugly is subjective or at least if you're personal car makes an Iso look ugly consider me impressed. The S4/Fidia is a mildly odd looking in profile but still incredibly desirable for a big saloon. However the Rivolta and Grifo are beautiful and have gorgeous interiors and I've a pal with a Lele (with the more desirable Chevrolet engine and a manual box) which looks amazing in the metal and was sickeningly well bought at the money he paid.
Btw no BMW engines, you might be getting mixed up with Glas and less of the 'rant', it was no rant just information.
D
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- dougk
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