Danocaster - future value???

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j mascis
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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by j mascis » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:59 pm

I'm not sure I understand the parts-caster argument. Why does it matter if the body and neck are high quality parts assembled in different locations vs being assembled by a machine in one plant (does Fender even do that, or are they made in different factories?) or by one maker versus two? How does that affect quality negatively. I just don't get it, but maybe it's me. Is this just a perception thing?

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by wooderson » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:52 pm

Despot wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:09 am
In that context, if you had the funds for a Danocaster (running around 3k or 3.5k I'm guessing these days) there are other things to consider if you want a fantastic guitar that will also hold it's value - at that price range you could easily pick up a SG Junior in good condition from the McCarthy years - those are also excellent instruments (again, I've rarely played an off Junior from either the '50s up to '65).
More like $2100-2500 or 2850 (used, his price, his one dealer). Still well below going rate for what most people consider "vintage" guitars - you've got Mustangs/Duo-Sonics, SG Juniors (though a Danocaster is almost as expensive as the lowest end) and maybe some refinished Fenders.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by Despot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:29 am

j mascis wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:59 pm
I'm not sure I understand the parts-caster argument. Why does it matter if the body and neck are high quality parts assembled in different locations vs being assembled by a machine in one plant (does Fender even do that, or are they made in different factories?) or by one maker versus two? How does that affect quality negatively. I just don't get it, but maybe it's me. Is this just a perception thing?
I remember reading something somewhere suggesting that a lot of Fender stuff is OEM made by other companies - which is why you get 'Fender licensed' Allparts necks for example. Take that with a grain of salt though as I'm not 100% sure about it...

What I do know is that the Musikraft D&B neck that I ordered for a build was practically identical, in every respect, to a 65 AV JM neck. Take from that what you will...

On that basis I have no issue with any builder taking parts and building guitars with them - that's what Fender does after all. A good guitar is a good guitar - no matter where it's made, who makes it or what it's made from. One of the nicest playing and sounding guitars I've ever owned was a 500 euro Epiphone '61 reissue Casino - made in China, using Gibson pickups and parts. At the time that I bought it I had a custom shop Gibson ES330 ... and the Epiphone was far and away a better sounding and playing guitar than the Gibson, which was still a great guitar. A poly finished, cheap wood, non-US made guitar clearly sounded better. That killed a lot of the gear snob in me for good.

The question initially posed was around whether a new guitar like a Danocaster (and I'd expand this into Bilt, Fano or any other boutique builder) will go up in value. Maybe, but most likely not.

The one exception I've seen in the boutique builder world is Motorave's Belaire model. Thanks to the link to Josh Homme in particular the price of this model second hand (if you can find one) has gone up a hell of a lot in line with the build price for Motorave going up as well. I'm aware of this one mostly because I've been curious about that guitar for a while (I like the design of it) and at one point, when I bought my Bilt, I could have gone for a Motorave instead. But I was put off by the 6 month build time. One year later the build price had gone up significantly ... and it continues to rise. Second hand prices have risen in line with this - so if you bought one early on before the design was more recognised you could sell it and make money on it.

That's a one-off thing though - linked to the new unit price increasing, dictating availability as the increased price puts people off buying and also limits the second hand market. In other words - influencing supply.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by j mascis » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:47 am

Good post, Wood.

I wondered about that aspect of famous players resulting in an increased premium.
Some famous people do play Dano's. Do you think the players aren't relevant enough to create that type of buzz?

From his site:

Q: “ OK.. before I pull the trigger - does anybody “famous” play your guitars ?

A: You mean - besides you ? Yep. Lots of guys slugging it out in clubs. Lots of guys in the P&W communities. Plus Keith Urban (x3), Neal Schon, Rusty Anderson ( McCartney band ), Walter Becker (X4) , Matt Scannell (x3) , John Shanks (x6) , Julian Lage , Rick Springfield (x2) , Val McCallum (x3) , Dean Parks , "Ready" Freddie Washington , and countless others


Out of those, Julian Lage is the best player, IMO, and most currently influential. Danos build time has increased over the years, yet he hasn't increased prices in line with that, which is good for us, but it might suggest much higher prices at some point, no? They increased $200 this past year. I wonder how that has slowed his demand. I personally went to the used market because of that hike, but if people are willing to pay it then he might find equilibrium price is higher on the supply/demand curve.

By the way, that Josh Homme guitar you mentioned looks based around a Gretsch. One of the most interesting guitars I own is a Gretsch Duo Jet. They are a bit temperamental...but still highly recommended if you are in the market for that dynasonic type sound. I'll have to find clips of the Motorave to see if it sounds the same. Gretsch is currently in their golden years, and I'm not sure how long that will last under Fender leadership (not ownership in this case), who recently had to sell Guild (Fender guilds are great as well). Maybe give them a look. I know Jack White plays a due jet (and other Gretsches) and raved about it, yet they still never really caught on with rock players. I think this is because they are linked to rockabilly instead of hard rock. IMO fantastic guitars, with the only complaint being I wish the necks were a bit thicker. You'd want one made under Fender licensing, which I believe began in 2005. The ones before that were totally different and more hit and miss. Just an idea since that's much cheaper than the 7k for the Motorave.

I finally pulled the string on a used Dano at a fair price, so in a few days I'll be able to see if the hype is real.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by Despot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:26 am

Thanks J - yeah ... I've tried a good few Gretsch guitars over the years ... mostly the current MIJ models. These are really really good guitars - but I've yet to find one that I loved enough to hang onto.

I did have a '67 Tennessean that I loved, but I was obliged to sell it back to the previous owner (the deal came with it an "if I change my mind in a few months you'll let me buy it back from you" gentleman's agreement that I felt bound to honour). That was the only Gretsch I've played that I've regretted letting go...

To be clear - I wouldn't buy a Motorave now. You're looking at about 6k to 7k for one at the moment - and I have to add import tax onto that. It's mad money and regardless of whether or not they're any good, that's just too much.

Right now my thinking is that any guitar I pick up has to be able to hold it's value over time. I don't buy or trade for things as 'investments' generally - they have to be guitars that I want to play first. Some might just turn out to be canny buys in the longer term (like the Polaris White SG Junior - or the clean SG Custom) ... but that wasn't what attracted me to them.

If a Motorave is running around 7k then it's pushing into the price range that would get me a mid-60s ES355 - probably not a McCarthy/65 or earlier ... but a '66 might be in that range. I have two final GAS wishes left in me - a vintage ES355 with a varitone and vibrola (I can live with the skinnier nut post '65 ... so I don't need to spend as much as if I wanted the wider nut McCarthy era guitars) and a vintage Gibson acoustic. I couldn't justify spending money that could easily net me one of those on a new guitar.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by Mechanical Birds » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:30 am

Bummed to find out that Danocasters aren't hand carved or whatever. Had no idea they were essentially kit guitars. That doesn't change much about the fact that people love them and they look amazing, but it surprises me I guess.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by Singlebladepickup » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:07 am

I think he does a bit of the neck shaping himself if that makes you feel better about it. Other than that, I'm sure there is something more to it than just matching parts and setting them up. Most people seem satisfied and I'm sure his efforts have a lot to do with that.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by blake480 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:34 am

Mechanical Birds wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:30 am
Bummed to find out that Danocasters aren't hand carved or whatever. Had no idea they were essentially kit guitars. That doesn't change much about the fact that people love them and they look amazing, but it surprises me I guess.
He has someone make his necks. But the treats his necks. He uses 4 neck carves I think based on his vintage fenders he loves. But his aging, and relicing is second to none. No one is even close. 2nd best I would say is Dennis Fano (novo guitars) Seems like has started to use some of Dan's techniques. My Novo neck feels just like a Danocaster, and they did just move to Nashville :)

But yes. Dan makes these guitars special. He makes sure they are light weight. He pics the right pickups for the type of wood. He sets them up perfectly. they look amazing, and the best feeling necks out there.

More to the topic. Will danocasters increase over time? If he stops making them yes. But over all they will hold thier value like the have the last 5-7 years. You buy a Danocaster. You know you will at worst sell it for $2200 at the bottom. But I wouldn't buy one and hold it as an investment. Unless he randomly stopped making them forever.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by Grey » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am

j mascis wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:59 pm
I'm not sure I understand the parts-caster argument. Why does it matter if the body and neck are high quality parts assembled in different locations vs being assembled by a machine in one plant (does Fender even do that, or are they made in different factories?) or by one maker versus two? How does that affect quality negatively. I just don't get it, but maybe it's me. Is this just a perception thing?
I for one time have a hard time paying a premium price for something I know I could put together myself, and that generally extends to Fenders too espically since they started piecing out their own guitars directly. To me, buying a complete guitar from Fender is about convenience, not workmanship, because I know if I bought those same parts and put them together myself it'd be the exact same guitar. I also have zero intrest in fake aging.

Obviously many people will feel very differently, and if it's a vintage guitar then there's something to be said about having parts that all match. But this isn't that situation. I think it's more than just perception.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by j mascis » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:17 pm

Grey wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am
j mascis wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:59 pm
I'm not sure I understand the parts-caster argument. Why does it matter if the body and neck are high quality parts assembled in different locations vs being assembled by a machine in one plant (does Fender even do that, or are they made in different factories?) or by one maker versus two? How does that affect quality negatively. I just don't get it, but maybe it's me. Is this just a perception thing?
I for one time have a hard time paying a premium price for something I know I could put together myself, and that generally extends to Fenders too espically since they started piecing out their own guitars directly. To me, buying a complete guitar from Fender is about convenience, not workmanship, because I know if I bought those same parts and put them together myself it'd be the exact same guitar. I also have zero intrest in fake aging.

Obviously many people will feel very differently, and if it's a vintage guitar then there's something to be said about having parts that all match. But this isn't that situation. I think it's more than just perception.
Not everyone knows how to put together a partscaster and do the finishing on the neck that Dano does, though. And then to hand match many sets of pickups for the best match. That's all a lot of work and time. I see so many bad partscasters on reverb from people who think they know how to piece together a guitar. They're desperately trying to get rid of their mess ups. If you truly know how, then definitely you should do that and build the guitar of your dreams. It won't be a ton cheaper (probably $1500 for top notch parts and the paint job after taxes, shipping all the parts, etc).

I love bolt on necks and easy to maintain guitars, and to pay $500 (on the used market) to have someone do it right is fine by me. I wouldn't buy a Dano at their new price of $2500 though. No way. At $2300 he had a good price point.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by wooderson » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:07 pm

I don't think the price is unreasonable (everything's gone up) but if they made offsets I'd be really interested in Eric Daw of Pin-Up Guitars or Protocaster for one. I've only heard about the former but I have a Telecaster from Protocaster (that was only ~$1300 used) that's as nice as any Danocaster I've seen.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by Grey » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:11 pm

j mascis wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:17 pm
Not everyone knows how to put together a partscaster and do the finishing on the neck that Dano does, though. And then to hand match many sets of pickups for the best match. That's all a lot of work and time. I see so many bad partscasters on reverb from people who think they know how to piece together a guitar. They're desperately trying to get rid of their mess ups. If you truly know how, then definitely you should do that and build the guitar of your dreams. It won't be a ton cheaper (probably $1500 for top notch parts and the paint job after taxes, shipping all the parts, etc).

I love bolt on necks and easy to maintain guitars, and to pay $500 (on the used market) to have someone do it right is fine by me. I wouldn't buy a Dano at their new price of $2500 though. No way. At $2300 he had a good price point.
You said that you "didn't understand the partscaster arguement." Obviously putting it together yourself isn't going to be an option for everyone, but it's a great option for many. $1,500 is an exaggerated estimate, but even at that price it's $1000 cheaper than what Dano is offering. It might be a dressed up "kit guitar" but it's still, in essence, a kit guitar. If you place a high value on fake aging (where there is a lot of personal interpretation, something not easily copied) and it's worth it to you (at $2300 or $2500 my arguement is the same) then go for it.

I personally don't place much value on superfluous things like "hand matched pickups" when none of the vintage instruments these guitars are based on featured anything so boutique-y. But if the Danocaster look does it for you, like I said, go for it. I like all sorts of guitars for all sorts of reasons and they don't always make a lot of sense.

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by j mascis » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Grey wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:11 pm
j mascis wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:17 pm
Not everyone knows how to put together a partscaster and do the finishing on the neck that Dano does, though. And then to hand match many sets of pickups for the best match. That's all a lot of work and time. I see so many bad partscasters on reverb from people who think they know how to piece together a guitar. They're desperately trying to get rid of their mess ups. If you truly know how, then definitely you should do that and build the guitar of your dreams. It won't be a ton cheaper (probably $1500 for top notch parts and the paint job after taxes, shipping all the parts, etc).

I love bolt on necks and easy to maintain guitars, and to pay $500 (on the used market) to have someone do it right is fine by me. I wouldn't buy a Dano at their new price of $2500 though. No way. At $2300 he had a good price point.
You said that you "didn't understand the partscaster arguement." Obviously putting it together yourself isn't going to be an option for everyone, but it's a great option for many. $1,500 is an exaggerated estimate, but even at that price it's $1000 cheaper than what Dano is offering. It might be a dressed up "kit guitar" but it's still, in essence, a kit guitar. If you place a high value on fake aging (where there is a lot of personal interpretation, something not easily copied) and it's worth it to you (at $2300 or $2500 my arguement is the same) then go for it.

I personally don't place much value on superfluous things like "hand matched pickups" when none of the vintage instruments these guitars are based on featured anything so boutique-y. But if the Danocaster look does it for you, like I said, go for it. I like all sorts of guitars for all sorts of reasons and they don't always make a lot of sense.
This isn't meant to be argumentative, but I'd be curious to play your partscaster vs a Dano and then decide if the 1k is worth it. Really would.
I've never even played a Dano. I just ordered one a few days ago, and will play one shortly. If it's not worth it I'll be the first to admit it, sell it, and probably look into building a partscaster. The value in the Dano, to me, is the brilliant [reported] neck work he does and the pickup matching. I don't care about the aging and prefer the light aging, which is what I bought. I didn't pay near $2300 because I went used. I wouldn't pay that much, nor would I pay the current $2500 unless this one I bought blows me away and I decide nobody else can match that type of work. I'll report back!

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by Grey » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:55 pm

Yeah man, i'd let you have a go if you were around. My only partscaster at the moment is a Strat that I put together 5 or 6 years ago, bit unusual because it's a hardtail but I got GAS for it after I played one and assumed I could put one together a lot cheaper, which is what I did. Refinished in LPB Metallic, I have nowhere near $1500 sunk into this thing but it's been a great guitar. PIC

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Re: Danocaster - future value???

Post by j mascis » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:50 pm

Grey wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:55 pm
Yeah man, i'd let you have a go if you were around. My only partscaster at the moment is a Strat that I put together 5 or 6 years ago, bit unusual because it's a hardtail but I got GAS for it after I played one and assumed I could put one together a lot cheaper, which is what I did. Refinished in LPB Metallic, I have nowhere near $1500 sunk into this thing but it's been a great guitar. PIC
That thing looks sweet, and I'm not even a strat guy.

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