Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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d-f
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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by d-f » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:32 am

BoringPostcards wrote:
d-f wrote:For folks making a big deal out of the trem placement: I compared the modern placement with a bunch of vintage placed trems a few weeks ago and there wasn't a huge difference. The updated trem placement added tension to the strings comparable to a guitar with vintage placement and a shim.
The main thing that makes it an issue for me, is that I often play behind the bridge and the CP position doesn't have the same notes because of the shorter distance, which also affects the overtones. The vintage placement has usable notes and the overtones aren't atonal.
This is obviously not an issue for everyone.
It also looks odd and cramped. More so on the Jaguar, due the chrome control plate.
I hear you. The pitches of the strings behind the bridge are different. However I would not describe them as "atonal". On traditionally-placed trems the pitch is about a perfect fourth, and on the modern-placed trems it's a perfect fifth, far from atonal. The modern placed behind-the-bridge strings do have a shorter sustain though.

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by Remulak » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:17 pm

d-f wrote:
BoringPostcards wrote: I hear you. The pitches of the strings behind the bridge are different. However I would not describe them as "atonal". On traditionally-placed trems the pitch is about a perfect fourth, and on the modern-placed trems it's a perfect fifth, far from atonal. The modern placed behind-the-bridge strings do have a shorter sustain though.
Yeah but Bull in the Heather doesn't sound right!

I keep coming back to the JMJM as I love the neck radius and massive frets more than a more 'vintage' model.

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by enkindler » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:02 pm

Remulak wrote:
d-f wrote:
BoringPostcards wrote: I hear you. The pitches of the strings behind the bridge are different. However I would not describe them as "atonal". On traditionally-placed trems the pitch is about a perfect fourth, and on the modern-placed trems it's a perfect fifth, far from atonal. The modern placed behind-the-bridge strings do have a shorter sustain though.
Yeah but Bull in the Heather doesn't sound right!

I keep coming back to the JMJM as I love the neck radius and massive frets more than a more 'vintage' model.
Only half serious: I haven't seen anyone get within half a semi tone of Bull in the heather It may be my ear that is off but I think with his increased neck angle and a already tall tonepro ToM that is isn't really close to a 4th from his (G G D D D# D#) tuning on that song.

I am sure someone has figured out the right mix of strings and neck angle, strings and bridge but as I was doing setups and have the Peterson tuner out


American Jaguar Professional distance from bridge to front of trem 4 21/32"

Jagurillo (blacktop like) 3 25/32"

Custom shop 1958 Jazzmaster distance from bridge to front of trem - 4 23/32"

E2 - B#4/C4 (6.5 semitones)
A2 - D5 (4 semitones)
D3 - G5 (5 semitones)
G3 - C6/C#6 (5.75 semitones)
B3 - D#6 (3 semitones)
E4 - G#6/A6 (4.75 semitones)

Custom shop 1962 Jazzmaster distance from bridge to front of trem 4 22/32"

E2 - C5 (8 semitones)
A2 - D5/D#5 (5.75 semitones)
D3 - G5 (5 semitones)
G3 - B5/C6 (4.5 semitones)
B3 = D#6/E6 (4.25 semitones)
E4 G#6 (4 semitones)

Both of the Jazzmasters have 11s on them, but while it is in the ball park of a perfect 4th (5 semitones) most humans hear something is out of tune with just +-12 cents. As there are 100 cents per semitone most of the strings on both are way off from that. Add in the error for equal temperament and it is probably only individual guitars that will work for bull in a the heather.

Seeing as the D is pretty close to a perfect 4th I am pretty sure that Thurston chose the note due to the wolf tones he was seeing.

Anyway I have no dog in this fight I just had the tools out and wanted to see if all the strings behind the bridge were a 4th, but at least now I know why the D string is always the one that gives me wolf tones.

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by BoringPostcards » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:28 pm

Now I want to listen to Experimental Jet Set Trash and No Star. :D
"Can you please pass me a jug of winter light?" - Lee Ranaldo
Poster formally known as Skiptracer/ZenJenga

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by higgsblossom » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:34 am

BoringPostcards wrote:Now I want to listen to Experimental Jet Set Trash and No Star.
Now I want to write a song that uses both vintage and modern "behing the string"-sounds ;)

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by d-f » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:07 am

enkindler wrote:Both of the Jazzmasters have 11s on them, but while it is in the ball park of a perfect 4th (5 semitones) most humans hear something is out of tune with just +-12 cents. As there are 100 cents per semitone most of the strings on both are way off from that. Add in the error for equal temperament and it is probably only individual guitars that will work for bull in a the heather.

Seeing as the D is pretty close to a perfect 4th I am pretty sure that Thurston chose the note due to the wolf tones he was seeing.

Anyway I have no dog in this fight I just had the tools out and wanted to see if all the strings behind the bridge were a 4th, but at least now I know why the D string is always the one that gives me wolf tones.
Awesome thanks for taking those measurements! Any chance you have a jag with the "modern" placement for comparison?

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by enkindler » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:59 pm

d-f wrote:
enkindler wrote:Both of the Jazzmasters have 11s on them, but while it is in the ball park of a perfect 4th (5 semitones) most humans hear something is out of tune with just +-12 cents. As there are 100 cents per semitone most of the strings on both are way off from that. Add in the error for equal temperament and it is probably only individual guitars that will work for bull in a the heather.

Seeing as the D is pretty close to a perfect 4th I am pretty sure that Thurston chose the note due to the wolf tones he was seeing.

Anyway I have no dog in this fight I just had the tools out and wanted to see if all the strings behind the bridge were a 4th, but at least now I know why the D string is always the one that gives me wolf tones.
Awesome thanks for taking those measurements! Any chance you have a jag with the "modern" placement for comparison?
I don't have my bench tuner set up today but here is an approximation from my stroboplus, note that the two E strings have screws that will interfere with those strings particularly the E2. As I can't see the cents on this tuner I am trying to be the closet as possible note, those with two notes are sitting in the middle.

American Professional Jag (traditional) 11s

E - G#5/A5
A - D5
D - F#5/G5
G - C6
B - D6
E - G#6

Jaguarillo (modern) 9s

E - D#5
A - F5
D - A5
G - D#6
B - G6
E - B6

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by secretroutines » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:50 pm

ianramos wrote:Thank you guys for all of the replies!
If there is one qualm i have with my J Mascis, it's that its too dark a guitar for the tone im trying to get. Often, when I am playing with other people in a band setting, I prefer my VM Jag simply because it just sounds a lot more clear to me. I love jazzmasters but I'm wondering if im a jaguar person hahaha.
Do you all look down on the CP jags as well?
If you just want it brighter try new pickups. The jmjm's have this jm/p90 hybrid construction which gives them a warmer sound, jm's really are just a little darker than jags. Do you use a lot of pedals? It could be an issue of output difference causing the jm to sound mushy.

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by tribi9 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:30 pm

Buy an ibanez RG
In a god we trust all others pay cash or PayPal.

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by ianramos » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:30 pm

secretroutines wrote:
ianramos wrote:Thank you guys for all of the replies!
If there is one qualm i have with my J Mascis, it's that its too dark a guitar for the tone im trying to get. Often, when I am playing with other people in a band setting, I prefer my VM Jag simply because it just sounds a lot more clear to me. I love jazzmasters but I'm wondering if im a jaguar person hahaha.
Do you all look down on the CP jags as well?
If you just want it brighter try new pickups. The jmjm's have this jm/p90 hybrid construction which gives them a warmer sound, jm's really are just a little darker than jags. Do you use a lot of pedals? It could be an issue of output difference causing the jm to sound mushy.



Yeah I've got probably around 15 pedals im pushing though the amp to be fair. Sounds extremely dark with the jazzmaster but the jag sounds just fine. Ill have to look into pickups, thanks man!

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by enkindler » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:52 pm

ianramos wrote:
secretroutines wrote:
ianramos wrote:Thank you guys for all of the replies!
If there is one qualm i have with my J Mascis, it's that its too dark a guitar for the tone im trying to get. Often, when I am playing with other people in a band setting, I prefer my VM Jag simply because it just sounds a lot more clear to me. I love jazzmasters but I'm wondering if im a jaguar person hahaha.
Do you all look down on the CP jags as well?
If you just want it brighter try new pickups. The jmjm's have this jm/p90 hybrid construction which gives them a warmer sound, jm's really are just a little darker than jags. Do you use a lot of pedals? It could be an issue of output difference causing the jm to sound mushy.



Yeah I've got probably around 15 pedals im pushing though the amp to be fair. Sounds extremely dark with the jazzmaster but the jag sounds just fine. Ill have to look into pickups, thanks man!
Replacing the tone knob with a no-load model that will click out will brighten it up a lot, or replace the pickups but you are getting close to the cost of a Fender SS Offset Mustang or a Squier Vintage Modified Mustang. You may want the jazzmaster sound in the future.

On a side note, you will need several guitars if you want to nail the Silver Rocket sound...and some drum sticks (shared just for fun)

https://youtu.be/05ygl9-5dvA?t=121

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by ianramos » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:11 pm

So the more I think, I may just want a brighter guitar. Which brings the next question: Do I sell my JMJM to fund a AVRI Mustang or a Classic 60's Jag/Jazz?

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by Larsongs » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:07 pm

ianramos wrote:So the more I think, I may just want a brighter guitar. Which brings the next question: Do I sell my JMJM to fund a AVRI Mustang or a Classic 60's Jag/Jazz?
All 3 would be brighter. IMO opinion the best Guitar, value & most versatile of the 3 is the Lacquer 60's.

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by pikmin » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:10 am

ianramos wrote:So the more I think, I may just want a brighter guitar. Which brings the next question: Do I sell my JMJM to fund a AVRI Mustang or a Classic 60's Jag/Jazz?
J just put Q_Pickups in my JMJM and it's a lot brighter and it sounds awesome . And the pickups are not expensive at all ...
It's pretty new so the only sample I have for now is on this song @ 2min06 , you can hear the JMJM with Q_pickups : https://ericinthekitchen.bandcamp.com/t ... feeding-me" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There will be more soon .

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Re: Should I keep my J Mascis or get a different Jazzmaster?

Post by mbene085 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:59 am

ianramos wrote:So the more I think, I may just want a brighter guitar. Which brings the next question: Do I sell my JMJM to fund a AVRI Mustang or a Classic 60's Jag/Jazz?
Ok, honest question - could you clarify what you mean by "AVRI Mustang"? Do you just mean a vintage mustang? Because there has been no American Reissue of that guitar.

If you're happy with how the JMJM feels and plays, I'd change pickups/electronics before doing anything else. You can get it sounding like a proper vintage-style JM that way. If you'd rather have a change of radius/neck/feel, then another guitar makes sense, but having a darker tone is a very solvable issue.

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