The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

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Deed_Poll
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The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by Deed_Poll » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:45 am

As someone who will soon be starting a guitar related business, I have been thinking a lot about what is / isn't appropriate. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a very fine line.

So my business will be custom parts related, like a few established members on this board who have received criticism, advice, suggestions and opinions in relation to something which has become commercially available.

I am not here to disapprove of the practice, as I have learned a lot and gained a lot from what those users have shared. I only name names so that readers will know what I mean - so, stuff like Spitfire Tort and Paul Rhoney's & later Kevin James's control plate business. Of course, it is a regular occurrence that someone might ask about where to find custom plates or quality tortoiseshell, and obviously forum members are more than happy to point them in the right direction and share their experiences.

Spam is a disease for any forum,and excessive posting and advertising rightly angers some people who value the impartial advice and information based discussion afforded by online spaces like these.

On the other hand I think it is a shame to 'relegate' such discussion to a separate forum, as I have enjoyed and learned a lot from those threads that dance the line. If you put them in a separate forum, thrown in with more blatant advertising and marketing (it is the place for it after all), the risk is that those threads with more than just commercial interest will get lost in the fast pace and noise of promotions and deals, and they won't receive the attention of those who might be interested in the process / products in more than just a customer capacity.

Additionally, certain businesses are related more or less to certain forums. A guitar business 'wants' to be on the new & reissue forum, a 'vintage' hard to find parts retailer or refabricator 'wants' to be on Vintage or Restorations, a parts builder 'wants' to be in Mods & Projects.

I have no idea how to run a forum, so my apologies if this is naive - but what if there was an 'opt in' button on each forum that showed threads with borderline commercial interest for that forum, perhaps they would appear alongside the rest of the threads and be displayed in a different colour? I don't know if this would be feasible or even desirable, but I am in a position at the moment where I would love to be getting opinions on designs, features, etc to assist in my business plan, but feel disingenuous doing so.

I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this, it strikes me as a challenging problem for many guitar forums these days.

Thanks for reading!

Dan
Owner Operator of GuitarForm - Custom Offset Guitar Bodies
www.guitarform.com ◈ @guitar_form

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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by LeCarpetron » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:24 am

I don't think there's an easy answer to what you're asking, but it's a goot topic and a discussion very much worth having nonetheless. Just to be 100% honest, I don't think what you're proposing, with an opt-in or seperate designation/section for commercial interests, would be a good idea because I think individuals like yourself seeking genuine opinions and input would eventually be crowded out by larger retailers and manufacturers selling their wares. I hate to make the slippery slope argument, but I would lose interest in the forum if it became a place for retailers to advertise and sell me stuff (some folks on here might be glad if i did do go away though ;) ). Reason being I signed up to hear un-biased opinions on guitars, music, playing music, recording, music business, etc. If you've got a dog in the fight, so to speak, then you're not un-biased.

Please don't misunderstand me though: I'm not saying I think retailers, mfg.'s, luthiers, producers, etc. shouldn't be a part of this forum. In fact, I truly value the opinions of people in the industry and professionals because they have perspective and experience the rest of do not. For example, one luthier on here was recently able to answer a question I had about left-handed guitar upcharges that no one but a guitar manufacturer/maker would have been able to answer. I also love to hear new music so I'm all ears when someone posts about a new song or album they're producing or recording. And obviously people in the industry should identify themselves as such in the interest of full disclosure. I know it probably goes on, but I hate the idea of mfg. reps skulking around on forums trying to influence opinion by posing as john q. customer. That's unethical business practice, imo. Not to say that's what someone is necessarily doing if they don't come right out and say they work for so and so, but it raises the appearance of impropriety.

Like I said, there;s no easy answer to this and it;s a good topic, thanks for posting. Imo, there's a fine line between giving an occasional plug to your project, product or whatever, and using the forum as a marketing tool. I'm not sure I can exactly say where that line is drawn, but I know it when I see it. And I think opening the door for commercial interests might devolve into 3rd-party internet marketers plugging products for big companies. Not to say a seperate section for commercial interests and professionals is impossible. It might be extremely interesting area of the forum, but it would have to be tightly controlled and the users posting there would have to authenticated to make sure it was used as you intend it.

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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by fuzzking » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:59 am

Uuuhmmm... much has changed over the years, anyway. I remember the Wattson FX guy getting banned for advertising years ago, which in hindsight doesn't feel too appropriate to me - considering how (comparatively) loose things are currently being handled. Still, I feel like advertising/selling/trading shouldn't become too prominent in regular threads/sections. Maybe a semi-open 'luthier/parts makers/effect builders'-section (offset related, with mod approval) could work just fine, but: whom to let (not) in, what about the current FS section (degrade that one to 2nd hand, maybe?) - tons of extra work for the mods. I doubt any of the mods have the time/nerves to include extra functions into the forum, and anyway, it's up to them to decide - OSG is their labor of love, and I think we should be fine with whichever way they choose to handle things.

Maybe best procedure if someone has a potential commercial product in the make would be to shoot a mod a p.m. and ask in which section it'd be appropriate to post (if at all) and live with their decision. :mellow:

Would be great to hear an opinion or two from the mod front, of course. :)
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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by Deed_Poll » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:17 am

LeCarpetron wrote:I don't think there's an easy answer to what you're asking, but it's a goot topic and a discussion very much worth having nonetheless. Just to be 100% honest, I don't think what you're proposing, with an opt-in or seperate designation/section for commercial interests, would be a good idea because I think individuals like yourself seeking genuine opinions and input would eventually be crowded out by larger retailers and manufacturers selling their wares. I hate to make the slippery slope argument, but I would lose interest in the forum if it became a place for retailers to advertise and sell me stuff (some folks on here might be glad if i did do go away though ). Reason being I signed up to hear un-biased opinions on guitars, music, playing music, recording, music business, etc. If you've got a dog in the fight, so to speak, then you're not un-biased.

Please don't misunderstand me though: I'm not saying I think retailers, mfg.'s, luthiers, producers, etc. shouldn't be a part of this forum. In fact, I truly value the opinions of people in the industry and professionals because they have perspective and experience the rest of do not. For example, one luthier on here was recently able to answer a question I had about left-handed guitar upcharges that no one but a guitar manufacturer/maker would have been able to answer. I also love to hear new music so I'm all ears when someone posts about a new song or album they're producing or recording. And obviously people in the industry should identify themselves as such in the interest of full disclosure. I know it probably goes on, but I hate the idea of mfg. reps skulking around on forums trying to influence opinion by posing as john q. customer. That's unethical business practice, imo. Not to say that's what someone is necessarily doing if they don't come right out and say they work for so and so, but it raises the appearance of impropriety.

Like I said, there;s no easy answer to this and it;s a good topic, thanks for posting. Imo, there's a fine line between giving an occasional plug to your project, product or whatever, and using the forum as a marketing tool. I'm not sure I can exactly say where that line is drawn, but I know it when I see it. And I think opening the door for commercial interests might devolve into 3rd-party internet marketers plugging products for big companies. Not to say a seperate section for commercial interests and professionals is impossible. It might be extremely interesting area of the forum, but it would have to be tightly controlled and the users posting there would have to authenticated to make sure it was used as you intend it.
I find much I agree with in your post, thanks for commenting.
I probably didn't explain myself as clearly as I should have done - I guess I'm trying to think of an opt-in system as a means by which we could really protect the forum's impartiality.

By opting in rather than opting out, it would mean that your usual user or browser wouldn't have to see that stuff - and it might disincentivise / discourage spam, as the 'scatter gun' approach wouldn't work.

Moreover it would mean that those who 'dance the line' would have no excuse not to tick the box that says "commercial interest" when making their post, and thereby could draw a clearer line in the sand.

Again, I have no idea how to run or moderate a forum, and have no idea as to the tools at the mods' disposal so I am not in a position to say what is possible or not. But it would be good to be able to click 'show this user's commercial posts' in their profile page or something. Then I could add Spitfire, Strider13, Stereordinary, dougk, Roadhouse etc. and wouldn't have to 'opt in' to see their commercial threads on the appropriate forums - although they would ideally still show up in a separate colour.

I thought if Google search still showed results from the commercial forums, it could still be an accessible resource for those researching a particular product to find the information they need without shoving it in everyone's faces and encouraging really annoying spam, like you find on the specific 'builders and retailers' forum on TGP for example, with guitar stores showing their inventory and bumping it every hour or so.
fuzzking wrote:Uuuhmmm... much has changed over the years, anyway. I remember the Wattson FX guy getting banned for advertising years ago, which in hindsight doesn't feel too appropriate to me - considering how (comparatively) loose things are currently being handled. Still, I feel like advertising/selling/trading shouldn't become too prominent in regular threads/sections. Maybe a semi-open 'luthier/parts makers/effect builders'-section (offset related, with mod approval) could work just fine, but: whom to let (not) in, what about the current FS section (degrade that one to 2nd hand, maybe?) - tons of extra work for the mods. I doubt any of the mods have the time/nerves to include extra functions into the forum, and anyway, it's up to them to decide - OSG is their labor of love, and I think we should be fine with whichever way they choose to handle things.

Maybe best procedure if someone has a potential commercial product in the make would be to shoot a mod a p.m. and ask in which section it'd be appropriate to post (if at all) and live with their decision.

Would be great to hear an opinion or two from the mod front, of course.
I think your post gives an even handed and accurate description of the way things are, and I would certainly put a mealy-mouthed, throat clearing disclaimer FAO the mods at the top of any thread I thought got anywhere near the line, at the very least.

Yes it would be great to hear from a mod perspective, usually I think we users (myself, certainly) have a rose-tinted view of what is or isn't possible on the forums, and the time it takes just to run the existing architecture from day to day - a big thanks to those guys behind the scenes making this all happen in the first place.

I don't know whether a collective of the cottage industries on here who might see the benefit of what I'm proposing could pool their resources together to help pay for the changes, I certainly think there could be benefit for everyone in developing a fair system that allows for a little information dissemination and publicity to those who welcome it (preventing a 'race to the bottom' like on the gear page where even the 'good guys' have to compete with the spammers just to get noticed) , whilst safeguarding the impartiality of the forum for the average user.

Cheers
Owner Operator of GuitarForm - Custom Offset Guitar Bodies
www.guitarform.com ◈ @guitar_form

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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by sookwinder » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:51 am

Image
relaxing alternative to doing actual work ...

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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by fuzzking » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:59 am

:D :D
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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by zakmaster » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:07 pm

Sookwinder, that's funny.

Wait, you're serious....

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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by Deed_Poll » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:48 pm

Haha! Point taken. :)
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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by slavemaster » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:03 am

I don't see a problem. If you are selling something, you have the For Sale section. End of story.
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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by andy_tchp » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:05 am

slavemaster wrote:I don't see a problem. If you are selling something, you have the For Sale section. End of story.
+1. Seems like trying to fix something that isn't broken. The membership self-moderates (mostly) really well; if a blatant spammer arrives the 'Report this post' button is just a click away.
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Re: The Fine Line - Commercial Interests

Post by zhivago » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:50 am

slavemaster wrote:I don't see a problem. If you are selling something, you have the For Sale section. End of story.

+1 here too...the site really isn't meant for selling stuff...we understood that deals happen though, hence the For Sale section...it is a natural part of a forum, I guess.

Keep it in that section and everything is pretty cool 8)
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