New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964 JM

Bringing your older offset back to life.
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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by robzila » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:05 pm

kosmonautmayhem wrote:Just don't be afraid to ask questions.

If I have one request (on behalf of OSG): Create a restoration thread with lots of pics!

Not to worry, I'll be asking many questions I'm sure. Right now I'm accumulating the necessary chemicals and tools that i don't already have.


As soon as I have more pics to add, I'll create the restoration thread.

Anyone have any special chemicals they would recommend for this task?

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by øøøøøøø » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:31 pm

The best advice I can give:

Proceed with extreme caution using the philosophy "First, do no harm."

If you're not experienced in vintage guitar repair/restoration, I'd advise doing as little as possible, or seeking outside professional help. You can do serious damage to the value of the instrument by doing seemingly-harmless things. Sort of how people who clean vintage cymbals harm their value, and they think "All I did was clean it, wtf?!" But they don't realize that the patina has a lot of value. But I digress (slightly), although patina also has some value on vintage guitars as well.

The prevailing ethos in vintage guitars in the past 20 years has become one not of "restoration" but rather preservation, and that's the course I'd recommend here, even if your aim is to keep it and play it yourself. Honest playwear does FAR less damage to the intrinsic, historic, and monetary value of an instrument than "restorations." I have a lot of old guitars, and I tour with them, play the dog shit out of them, and leave my own marks of wear, use and abuse. But restoration is a whole other thing.

Preserve (intact) as much as possible. If there's the slightest hunch the finish might be original, then don't touch it (seek expert counsel first). Even if it's unoriginal, it may be that it's an old refin that has been on the guitar so long that it's part of the guitar's "history," and preserving it actually will maintain more value (both monetarily and historically) than doing an imitation "factory-correct" paint job.

To explain somewhat further with an example-- if a vintage guitar comes into a shop and it was customized in the 1950s or 1960s with the performer's name or some custom graphic or add-on, then many/most vintage dealers would rather keep that intact, even if it were easily removed to restore the guitar to "stock." If it adds to the guitar's personality, history, or provenance, it is usually better to leave well enough alone. Of course, sometimes a thing was just hacked on and butchered, and in that case it would often be better to effect an expert restoration. It's very much case-by-case, and unless you've spent a career buying or selling vintage guitars, you frankly will often not know which situation is which.

Replacing the bum tuner with an era-correct Kluson is unquestionably a good move.

Cleaning the top layer of funk off is a good move ONLY if you're certain you can do it without damaging any of the finish or plastics, even if the finish is unoriginal. Unless you know for sure whether this is the case, then assume you have no idea and consult an expert.

Rust removal is a bad idea for a first-timer. For one thing, if the rust is present, then the plating is already damaged and you won't be able to restore the parts to "like new" condition. If the rust interferes with the function of parts, then some work to restore full functionality is usually a net positive. However, if the rust is merely cosmetic, then it's probably best to leave it (in my opinion-- opinions do vary). Many people appreciate the patina of old parts, and some authentic rust just adds to the provenance of the instrument (not to mention its character) in the opinion of many.

A good setup and anything needed to restore the guitar to playable condition is generally safe, but anything non-reversible (i.e. fretwork, etc) should be left to experts.

Generally speaking, anything that can be done without permanent modification (i.e. it could be 'put back original' without a trace) is safe to do.

The celluloid pickguard will shrink if not screwed down to a piece of wood. If you remove it for any length of time, absolutely screw it to a piece of plywood to keep it from shrinking. Otherwise you may not be able to screw it back onto the guitar readily.

At the end of the day, a "barn find" like you have here is almost always worth more than an amateur restoration. Proceed with extreme caution, or you could literally be throwing away both historical significance and money. Imagine you found an original and priceless ancient artifact. Would you try and 'restore' it yourself? Probably not, and while this situation isn't really that dramatic, I recommend approaching it sort of the same way.

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by zastruga » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:52 pm

:w00t: Wow. Just... wow! I shall be following this one intently.

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by missionguitars » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:30 pm

øøøøøøø wrote:Proceed with extreme caution using the philosophy "First, do no harm."
^ this. $400 +another couple hundred to clean/set it up leaves you to WAY ahead of the game for a 64 JM.

By and large, it looks like all it needs is a naphtha rub-down, and lube on a few parts, and you should be good to go, but if you aren't well-versed in this stuff, don't make this your first project.

Now, get off my lawn...

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by invisible man » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:26 pm

Wow!

Ditto everything øøøøøøø said.

Know that many players here and elsewhere would be esctatic to play such a guitar with minimal intervention (made playable, very gently cleansed of filth and any corrosion which rises to the level of threatening functionality or structural integrity), and many would pay a hefty sum to do so.

That whitish spot on the guard is awesome, almost looks like someone wore through the tort layer with superhuman picking intensity.

Whenever I see that American Pickers show I wish it was like this thread.

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by buckwalder » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:11 am

invisible man wrote:Wow!

Ditto everything øøøøøøø said.

Know that many players here and elsewhere would be esctatic to play such a guitar with minimal intervention (made playable, very gently cleansed of filth and any corrosion which rises to the level of threatening functionality or structural integrity), and many would pay a hefty sum to do so.

That whitish spot on the guard is awesome, almost looks like someone wore through the tort layer with superhuman picking intensity.

Whenever I see that American Pickers show I wish it was like this thread.
More likely couch ware from local teenagers getting their freak on, ;) on that couch. Not enough room in the back of a tuned up Honda Civic for that.

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by terminalvertigo » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:18 am

invisible man wrote:That whitish spot on the guard is awesome, almost looks like someone wore through the tort layer with superhuman picking intensity.
i believe this is correct :)
GoodDeals:Jaguar018-Skip-Scotty66-Noirengineer-Panoramic-Soundhack-Tribi9-Stereordinary-Dug-Ginnungagap-Loomer-Eupat-FenderBob-Franco-AWSchmit-PeterHerman-TweedleDee-Diceman-Prospect-Danocaster-Glimmertwin-Jetset-Staytuned-ukfuzz-Aen-Atomicmassunit-MT,etc

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by robzila » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:01 pm

øøøøøøø wrote:The best advice I can give:

Proceed with extreme caution using the philosophy "First, do no harm."

If you're not experienced in vintage guitar repair/restoration, I'd advise doing as little as possible, or seeking outside professional help. You can do serious damage to the value of the instrument by doing seemingly-harmless things. Sort of how people who clean vintage cymbals harm their value, and they think "All I did was clean it, wtf?!" But they don't realize that the patina has a lot of value. But I digress (slightly), although patina also has some value on vintage guitars as well.

The prevailing ethos in vintage guitars in the past 20 years has become one not of "restoration" but rather preservation, and that's the course I'd recommend here, even if your aim is to keep it and play it yourself. Honest playwear does FAR less damage to the intrinsic, historic, and monetary value of an instrument than "restorations." I have a lot of old guitars, and I tour with them, play the dog shit out of them, and leave my own marks of wear, use and abuse. But restoration is a whole other thing.

Preserve (intact) as much as possible. If there's the slightest hunch the finish might be original, then don't touch it (seek expert counsel first). Even if it's unoriginal, it may be that it's an old refin that has been on the guitar so long that it's part of the guitar's "history," and preserving it actually will maintain more value (both monetarily and historically) than doing an imitation "factory-correct" paint job.

To explain somewhat further with an example-- if a vintage guitar comes into a shop and it was customized in the 1950s or 1960s with the performer's name or some custom graphic or add-on, then many/most vintage dealers would rather keep that intact, even if it were easily removed to restore the guitar to "stock." If it adds to the guitar's personality, history, or provenance, it is usually better to leave well enough alone. Of course, sometimes a thing was just hacked on and butchered, and in that case it would often be better to effect an expert restoration. It's very much case-by-case, and unless you've spent a career buying or selling vintage guitars, you frankly will often not know which situation is which.

Replacing the bum tuner with an era-correct Kluson is unquestionably a good move.

Cleaning the top layer of funk off is a good move ONLY if you're certain you can do it without damaging any of the finish or plastics, even if the finish is unoriginal. Unless you know for sure whether this is the case, then assume you have no idea and consult an expert.

Rust removal is a bad idea for a first-timer. For one thing, if the rust is present, then the plating is already damaged and you won't be able to restore the parts to "like new" condition. If the rust interferes with the function of parts, then some work to restore full functionality is usually a net positive. However, if the rust is merely cosmetic, then it's probably best to leave it (in my opinion-- opinions do vary). Many people appreciate the patina of old parts, and some authentic rust just adds to the provenance of the instrument (not to mention its character) in the opinion of many.

A good setup and anything needed to restore the guitar to playable condition is generally safe, but anything non-reversible (i.e. fretwork, etc) should be left to experts.

Generally speaking, anything that can be done without permanent modification (i.e. it could be 'put back original' without a trace) is safe to do.

The celluloid pickguard will shrink if not screwed down to a piece of wood. If you remove it for any length of time, absolutely screw it to a piece of plywood to keep it from shrinking. Otherwise you may not be able to screw it back onto the guitar readily.

At the end of the day, a "barn find" like you have here is almost always worth more than an amateur restoration. Proceed with extreme caution, or you could literally be throwing away both historical significance and money. Imagine you found an original and priceless ancient artifact. Would you try and 'restore' it yourself? Probably not, and while this situation isn't really that dramatic, I recommend approaching it sort of the same way.

Thank you for the words of advice. I have no intention of destroying any of the guitars original features, nor am I interested in a complete restoration. Your term of "preservation" fits perfectly with my intent. While I'm not a rookie when it comes to guitars, I'm intelligent enough to ask questions before proceeding with anything that might cause harm. No way in the world would I attempt a refret, but swapping out a set of tuners is a piece of cake. I intend on keeping this guitar and playing it for years, but as you can see from the pictures it is in desperate need of a deep cleaning. As for the rust, my primary concern is returning it to a playable condition while preserving its condition and historical significance since it is so close to an original guitar. As for what is needed to do that, the primary part will be elbow grease, care and restraint. Concerning parts, I need a vintage switch cap, an early 1964 serial plate, and a repro decal. As to the decal, knowing how that's a no-no to ask about around here, I can only hope that one of the members here sends me a PM with a good recommendation. Hopefully I can find a trusted seller who'll swap me an early 64 plate for the 68 plate along with a little cash.

Now for a question. What would be the best method of removing the rust from the pots? Since all the wiring appears to be original, I don't want to deal with unsoldering anything other than the input jack unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. I've got deoxit, contact cleaner and such, and all manner of brushes, cloths, and tools.
Last edited by robzila on Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by Jazzmastervsjaguar » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:08 pm

Wow what a find! Congratulations this guitar is amazing. I normally love a restored re-fined guitar when it comes to already re-finished guitars but on this one I would clean it up real good make it playable and leave it as is (maybe add a decal). It just looks killer! Plus tort and black are a classic combo that always looks good to me.

One thing I like to do when I clean up a guitar is to use your basic electrical cleaner on all of the electronics and all the chrome. I take everything apart and spray it on a paper towel or q-tip and rub down all of the chrome bits. The stuff is basically a de-greaser and will take a lot of rust build up off without leaving any extra residue like say something like wd40. It won't take off the rust completely and you'll still have the look of a barn find if that's what you're going for. But it will feel smooth and allow the moving parts to preform much better. I just did this to a recently acquired Mustang. There was a lot of build up on the cigar tube and the plate was very dull before cleaning. Anyway I don't have a before picture but here is a pic after to see what I mean:

Image

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by øøøøøøø » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:12 pm

I would skip the Caig DeOxit and get some Electrolube EML.

This is a recent conversion for me, as I had always used DeOxit on switches and Caig Faderlube (F5) on pots.

Electrolube EML is a very good cleaner lubricant that's really safe and works super incredibly well, especially when shit is really far gone. I got into it when we were re-commissioning an older Neve console. Apparently, this is the only shit that should be anywhere near a Neve. I've become a convert on other stuff, too.

I would encourage you to use a cleaner/lubricant (as opposed to a cleaner like DeOxit) on pots. If you clean pots without lubricating, you could cause the aging carbon trace in the pot to wear prematurely and/or flake off (causing diminished performance and more noise/scratchiness over time).

Sounds like you've got your head on straight with this one. There is NO ethical dilemma about a repro decal in this case. It's an original guitar, and deserves an original-looking decal. You can also reach out to Fender themselves; they might be able to set you up with a proper decal, possibly even free of charge.

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by rrtxoso » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:24 pm

The jaguap crosses to the other side of the street when it sees this guitar.
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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by niemand » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:25 pm

.
Last edited by niemand on Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by kosmonautmayhem » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:37 pm

DocCarlson wrote:
rrtxoso wrote:The jaguap crosses to the other side of the street when it sees this guitar.


how dare you
I think this may actually be accurate. :ph34r:

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by niemand » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:08 pm

.
Last edited by niemand on Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New to the forum with a big project in front of me..1964

Post by 2fLAz » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:08 am

bloody fainted !!!!
just clean the chrome bits, replace what's needed and RAWK IT !
Otherwise, I send you 600$ an dI would do it on your behalf :p

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